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[sauvin]

I have to add that for several reasons, I completely disagree with the notion that Eli manipulates Oskar "in bad faith," if you will. [...] And don't tell me that the look they exchange at the end isn't anything but the purest expression of love ever committed to film. No way is there bad faith in that.

Very well said (typed). I agree to all of your posting!

Me too! ACL certainly has a way with words, doesn't he?

He certainly does. Everything he's said is stuff I've tried to say over the past couple of years, but ACL does it so much better.

One quibble: I'm not convinced that movie Eli's sobbing on dead Jocke's back is remorse.

[metoo]

One quibble: I'm not convinced that movie Eli's sobbing on dead Jocke's back is remorse.

I might agree to that - remorse is maybe too strong a word. But he does not do his thing gladly - he would rather not, if possible (without dying). But there is no such way. (IMO, if we don't accept the impossibility of a different way, we end up in a different universe than the one that JAL designed for LTROI.)

[Ash]

One quibble: I'm not convinced that movie Eli's sobbing on dead Jocke's back is remorse.

I might agree to that - remorse is maybe too strong a word. But he does not do his thing gladly - he would rather not, if possible (without dying). But there is no such way. (IMO, if we don't accept the impossibility of a different way, we end up in a different universe than the one that JAL designed for LTROI.)

Eli (and JAL) did actually demonstrate a "different way", with Tommy in the cellar. I don't know if that way is viable in the long term for Eli, but it worked very well.
So by introducing that idea, was JAL suggesting it could be a future option for Eli to follow?
If you asked for a show of hands from people here willing to donate a few litres, she'd have no worries.

[metoo]

Eli (and JAL) did actually demonstrate a "different way", with Tommy in the cellar. I don't know if that way is viable in the long term for Eli, but it worked very well.

Yes, I'm aware of that. And apparently Eli had done that before, many times. But still he tells Oskar there is no other way, so I assume he is right, that he has some information not revealed in the novel.

The real reason I have this opinion, is that if it wasn't the only way, the foundation for Eli's existence would be radically changed. I believe it has to be the only way to make the novel and the film what they are.

So by introducing that idea, was JAL suggesting it could be a future option for Eli to follow?

Well, in LTODD JAL describes O&E as looking predatory, so I guess not.

[steviej]

Thanks for the brilliant responses everybody. i didn't realise my post would generate such thoughtful and insightful comments. I don't agree with all of them but you guys are well ahead of me and it gives me plenty of material to feed my infection

[DMt.]

I would definitely give the film more time, stevie, let it percolate a bit.

I will be very surprised if Lina's Eli does not nom your heart.

[ofelia]

Why does Hakan make you sympathetic to Elias? Elias "rescues" Hakan from his miserable life and turns him in to a murderer and then he turns Hakan in to another monster - a zombie! Why the sympathy for this?

I think Håkan in the novel brings more sympathy for Eli because we see that she has been subjected to the yearnings of a pedophile and it is suggested that he is not the first or worst that she has endured.

This is part of what I meant when I originally said that in the novel, Hakan and Eli's relationship offers more sympathy for Eli than in the film. In the film it definitely seems that she's manipulating him, because you don't get his side of it. He just seems like a sad old man who for some unspecified reason cares about Eli. A lot of people who hadn't read the novel thought of the possibility of a similarity between Oskar and Hakan, that Oskar would replace him. (I don't agree with that idea but that's another topic). I really felt sorry for Eli reading the book, obviously during the almost-rape scene but even before Hakan is turned into a zombie. I saw Eli as a 12-year-old and not quite understanding Hakan's desire. At the same time he's perfectly aware of what's going on in Hakan's mind when Hakan looks at Eli, even if Eli is sort of an asexual being. He's been treated this way before in the past. He has to give in a little to Hakan's desire so that Hakan will keep helping him. I found it so painful to reread their early dialogues after knowing more about both of them, because they're each conflicted and they really don't have any choice but the situation is awful for both of them. And Eli knows that he is making Hakan unhappy by not giving in; I think he feels a little sorry for Hakan and you can see that in the scenes where Eli kisses Hakan before he goes out or when he visits Hakan in the hospital, I think he partly wanted to make up for causing Hakan to be there in the first place. And he objected to letting Hakan use the acid.

It's so interesting that in this situation it's the child who really has complete power over the pedophile, not the other way around. I mean often you'll have pedophiles saying they were 'seduced' by children, but the fault has to go to the adult. In this case, Eli is more aware of what's going on than a typical child would be, and Hakan genuinely (from his twisted point of view) is in love with Eli. He holds back, Eli tells him what he may or may not do and he obeys. They're both using each other. I've never read anything like that before, where you feel a little sick at all of it but there is some sympathy evoked for Eli and Hakan, in a way.

Whereas in the film it's quite easy to feel sorry for Hakan looking at his face. He barely has any lines or scenes. If you read the book after having seen the film I definitely think it changes your perspective on both characters, how Hakan took advantage of Eli as well as the other way around.

[DMt.]

A mighty post.

I think that both JAL and TA are very aware of the hypocritical evil of the lynch-minded paedo-hunter, and of the damage this has done to all our relations with children. The film is in one sense an unashamed celebration of the children's sheer beauty [even, or perhaps especially, with a snotty nose].

[gattoparde59]

One quibble: I'm not convinced that movie Eli's sobbing on dead Jocke's back is remorse.

You old cynic! Then what is the trouble with Eli in that scene? Does she have tummy ache from too much blood? Or maybe she regrets wearing a white shirt?

[rgh]

One quibble: I'm not convinced that movie Eli's sobbing on dead Jocke's back is remorse.

You old cynic! Then what is the trouble with Eli in that scene? Does she have tummy ache from too much blood? Or maybe she regrets wearing a white shirt?

I suppose she could be sobbing because the general horror of her existence hits her after being forced to kill again and not remorse, per se. I find it difficult to completely remove remorse from this scene though.