The Policeman vs Lacke

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BurgerPrince
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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by BurgerPrince » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:41 am

sauvin wrote:I'll agree that movies shouldn't need books to fill in what the movies don't explain. This is part of the fascination with LTROI, that it has elusive subtleties. The only major "unexplained" in it that I find is exactly what Hakan is supposed to be; most of the rest of the salient content is there to be studied. By contrast, the only thing I find in LMI that's not outwardly explained is the cop's busting down Abby's door.
Lol I'd say the cop made a foolish mistake by not bringing backup and checking the room where Owen hid, but as for breaking down the door (he knew someone was in Abby's apartment, as Owen accidentally made a noise and Thomas was already dead), he may have just had an arrest-warrant in his pocket.
sauvin wrote: LMI did a great job at showing a society in which everybody does his own thing and doesn't really have much to do with anybody else. There's no China Restaurant Scooby Gang to notice that Thomas and Abby moved into Janne's old place, and no Goesta to go to them in shock to report Jocke's murder. There's no Scooby Gang to try to convince him to report what he'd seen to the police. It's not apparent that Virginia has any idea who anybody else is in the movie, for example, where LTROI's Virginia knew everybody. Nobody, in fact, seemed to know anybody else. What there is is an apparent stay-at-home Mom who festoons her apartment with a random lot of religious artifacts while sucking down cheap dinner wine by the gallon and watching a plastic electronic church on TV. Contrast this with Oskar's mother, who (in the movie, anyway) seemed very well put together, kept it clean, kept it well-ordered and may have had a regular job. There's no "community" in 1982 Los Alamos, and this is one of the major differences between the two movies.

I have no idea what Reeves might have wanted to illustrate, but as far as I can see, there was no "police investigation", there was a single cop who seemed to have something of a crusade going on against "cults". The surface idea was that the cop had no idea what he was really looking for because it was hidden - Abby is very adept at hiding - but the subtext is a tired old American trope from the 50's that Authority is clueless and ineffectual, together with some relatively new subtext that Authority can also be rash, overhanded and dangerous to themselves and to others.

Empty politics on TV in an abandoned hospital lobby, empty religion on the TV playing out for a lonely woman lost in a pickled slumber, empty or absent community, empty authority (not only in the guise of a bumbling cop but also as manifested by a school system that has little idea what's happening to its kids, and seeming to care less), all of these things are reflected in distilled and purified essence both as Owen sits in an empty wintertime courtyard gobbling down empty calories and absently singing a commercial jingle "Eat some now, save some for later" and as he sits in the train with his terrifying new girlfriend in a footlocker at his feet singing the exact same thing in a very different emotional context.
(You don't see it, but there is a full investigation going on. Notice how the cop said things, such as to Thomas "We will track down anybody you're working with," and there were scenes where other policemen where present.) As for the policeman's immediate suspicion of Thomas being a Satanic cultist, there was actually a time period from the 1970's to the 1990's known as the "Satanic Panic," where all over the world, widespread fear of Satanic cults committing horrific crimes gripped everyone's minds, including the minds of the cops. (As they were blissfully unaware of the fact that most of these "crimes" were no more than urban legends. If you wonder why everyone was so afraid, you can thank the news for sensationalizing on these urban legends.)

I think I understand what you're saying about the community in LMI. I think it exists in the story (it's not like everyone magically disappears when Owen doesn't look, right?), but kept deliberately unseen, as the view of the community is limited to Owen's perspective. He watches his classmates in the pool, his neighbors through the windows, but never speaks to them. A memorial for the first person killed by Thomas on screen is set up in the fence of the school by local students and residents, but being from Owen's perspective, he never talks to or listens to other kids talking about what happened, as the faces of other students are blurred out as their voices are muffled while he walks down the hallways of the school. Subtleties such as these help to enforce his sense of isolation to the audience, as he is barely seen talking to anybody except for Abby, and confides in her that he wants to leave Los Alamos because of his dislike of the community. I think, while LTROI (While I love the book and it's film adaption, my criticism is only that LMI did a better job at fleshing out the story on screen) explores how the whole living community of Blackeberg is affected by Eli's presence, LMI explores how the community of Los Alamos is nothing to Owen but a ghost to remind him of his agony, and Abby comes along and serves as his escape from it. (I think LMI was amazing as it is, though I'd admit, if I had it my way, I would do what neither film did, and add a scene exploring the community's reaction after the pool sequence. THAT would be interesting to see! ;))
jetboy wrote:LMI is the movie that has everything handed to the audience whereas LTROI has much more going on behind the scenes. As a matter of fact, so much of LTROI's ambiguity was stolen by LMI like Thomas having been with Abby since childhood.
That's the problem that the Swedish film has, the thing is, you don't want things to be too ambiguous. Some details to the Swedish film's plot would be appreciated by viewers who read the book, but their significance may not be understood by viewers who didn't read it. In LMI, Thomas is a more fleshed out and human character than Hokan in the Swedish film. Hokan felt too much like a shallow ghost of the wonderful character he was in the novel, as he was seen for part of the film, and then, *poof*, he's dead and completely vanished. You feel sorry for him as you watch the Swedish film, but unless you read the novel, you'd hardly remember him as a character.

I liked LTROI's film adaption, I have nothing against it, but my criticism is that I thought it didn't flesh out and humanize the story and characters as well as I thought LMI did.
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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by jetboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:50 am

BurgerPrince wrote:That's the problem that the Swedish film has, the thing is, you don't want things to be too ambiguous. Some details to the Swedish film's plot would be appreciated by viewers who read the book, but their significance may not be understood by viewers who didn't read it. In LMI, Thomas is a more fleshed out and human character than Hokan in the Swedish film. Hokan felt too much like a shallow ghost of the wonderful character he was in the novel, as he was seen for part of the film, and then, *poof*, he's dead and completely vanished. You feel sorry for him as you watch the Swedish film, but unless you read the novel, you'd hardly remember him as a character.
I understand that's the way YOU feel but that's not necessarily the way it IS. Of course you have to see it through my eyes to understand my POV but I can assure you, I, with no help other than the movie itself, thought it was obvious that the "horror" of LTROI was not the vampirism but that after all the beauty of the love story, Oskar was doomed to be Hakan AND that Hakan had been like Oskar before him. So, to me Hakan was very fleshed out and very human but unlike LMI, I did it, it wasn't done for me. It wasn't "too" ambiguous, it HAD to be like that to get that effect. And Im not the only one, obviously Reeves saw it also, as well as others.
BurgerPrince wrote:I liked LTROI's film adaption, I have nothing against it, but my criticism is that I thought it didn't flesh out and humanize the story and characters as well as I thought LMI did
And I agree with you, the characters weren't fleshed out as much, but that was purposeful, its why its ambiguous. And yeah, maybe it didn't humanize the characters as much but that was purposeful too. They wanted US to fill in the blanks. I mean we KNOW theyre human, but what kind of humans are they? How bad is Oskar, mentally, with his violent fantasies? Is he inline to be a school shooter in the future, or is it "just a phase"? Who is Hakan exactly, and why does he not want Oskar and Eli to be together? And for that matter, who is Eli? Her face is the most expressive of all but how can we, as humans, gauge what a 200+ (thats the book, could be 2000+ in the movie) year old vampire is REALLY thinking.

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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by BurgerPrince » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:48 pm

jetboy wrote:I understand that's the way YOU feel but that's not necessarily the way it IS. Of course you have to see it through my eyes to understand my POV but I can assure you, I, with no help other than the movie itself, thought it was obvious that the "horror" of LTROI was not the vampirism but that after all the beauty of the love story, Oskar was doomed to be Hokan AND that Hokan had been like Oskar before him. So, to me Hokan was very fleshed out and very human but unlike LMI, I did it, it wasn't done for me. It wasn't "too" ambiguous, it HAD to be like that to get that effect. And I'm not the only one, obviously Reeves saw it also, as well as others.
I get what you're saying, and yeah, before reading the book, I also presumed that Hokan may have been like Oskar, as Thomas may have been like Owen in LMI. (But, especially after reading the book, at least for me, Hokan felt too much like a ghost.)
jetboy wrote:And I agree with you, the characters weren't fleshed out as much, but that was purposeful, its why its ambiguous. And yeah, maybe it didn't humanize the characters as much but that was purposeful too. They wanted US to fill in the blanks. We KNOW they're human, but what kind of humans are they? How bad is Oskar, mentally, with his violent fantasies? Is he inline to be a school shooter in the future, or is it "just a phase"? Who is Hokan exactly, and why does he not want Oskar and Eli to be together? And for that matter, who is Eli? Her face is the most expressive of all but how can we, as humans, gauge what a 200+ (that's the book, could be 2000+ in the movie) year old vampire is REALLY thinking.
I think I get what you're saying. I will make myself clear, though I enjoyed LMI more, I did love the Swedish film. I think the key difference between the American and Swedish films is what the directors want the viewer to do with what is given. In the Swedish film, the greater emphasis is on the mystery, as you're left to wonder for yourself what the characters are like and what Oskar's fate is to be. Meanwhile, in LMI, although you are still left as the viewer to interpret Owen's fate for yourself, the greater emphasis is on the moral side to the story. As you're given the equation, you're left to interpret what's right and wrong in the story for yourself. As you know more of the details of the characters, you're made ambivalent to all of the characters, and to me, that is what really adds the hot sauce to the film and made LMI so special.

Anyway, it's been fun debating with you over this subject, and although I may not agree with all of your opinions, I still respect them 100%. Now, forgive me, but I am going to steal FPSRussia's signature line, "And as always... have a nice day."
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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by BurgerPrince » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:07 am

Oh boy, it's been quite a while since I've been here, hasn't it? I joined here and started posting when I just finished my school year, with a lot of stress on my my mind, and I could not think perfectly clearly, so yeah, some of my points may have been a bit iffy and contradictory here and there (Ambiguous vs. unexplained). Sooo anyway, what are my views on the Cop vs. Lacke?

I still prefer the American version, I felt that Virginia and Lacke were rather forgettable in comparison to the book, and Reeves' minimization of them gave more room to actually capture Owen's character closer to that of the book (Captured better was his sense of isolation, his habits of eating junk food to bury his stress, stealing to empower himself, being ), but that's just my opinion. This is also just my opinion, but I still feel that Hokan in the Swedish film just faded away when he died, and afterwards it feels like he never existed. (Though I do understand, he's left for you to fill in the blanks and decide for yourself what it might imply for what's to come for Oskar) However, he continues to haunt the characters after his own death in the American film (when Owen finds the picture) and book (when Oskar finds his food and concludes that Eli used him as a "human blood bank.")

But I will say, it was worth it in the Swedish film to keep Lacke to tie into the theme of revenge and escalating violence, how he was driven to (attempt to) kill Eli for taking away his wife and best friend. Yet both films manage to capture this theme with the conflicts between Owen/Oskar and his bullies, how he wants to get back at them, smashes the guy's ear, they want to get back at him, they attack him in the pool, etc.

However, I like better the Policeman in the American version, as he ties into the theme of justice. Him not having personal interest in Abby and her victims makes him, in my opinion, more pitiable - He wasn't some drunken anarchist trying to satisfy his personal sense of revenge, he was a man doing his job to enforce the law. While Lacke was an attempted murderer, the Policeman was trying to lawfully bring Abby to justice for her actions, and this made me feel less comfortable watching him die. But of course, this is only my own opinion, you all are free to have your own! ;)

And as always... Have a nice day.
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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by jetboy » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:43 am

BurgerPrince wrote:I think the key difference between the American and Swedish films is what the directors want the viewer to do with what is given. In the Swedish film, the greater emphasis is on the mystery, as you're left to wonder for yourself what the characters are like and what Oskar's fate is to be. Meanwhile, in LMI, although you are still left as the viewer to interpret Owen's fate for yourself, the greater emphasis is on the moral side to the story. As you're given the equation, you're left to interpret what's right and wrong in the story for yourself. As you know more of the details of the characters, you're made ambivalent to all of the characters, and to me, that is what really adds the hot sauce to the film and made LMI so special.
This is an answer to your previous post but your summary of LTROI is incomplete while comparing the two movies. Yes there is an element of mystery as to what will become of Oskar after the train ride but that certainly isnt what LTROI is about, first and foremost. If the greater emphasis for LMI is the moral side of the story, LTROI is about love. It isnt just just a love story, its about the nature of love, what it means, how it can change a person.

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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by drakkar » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 am

Virginia plays an important role in LTROI as a parallel to Eli, in showing the difference between an adult vampire and a child. We get glimpses of Virginias feelings through the process, ending with suicide as she cannot bear the consequences.
In LMI Virginia is reduced to a mindless arm gnawing zombie, and we are left wondering what bearing that has on Abby. Is she also a zombie like creature playing a role?
I was never comfortable with the cop entering the apartment alone. That was something an amateur wino like Lacke could do, not a pro.
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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by gattoparde59 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:46 am

BurgerPrince wrote:But I will say, it was worth it in the Swedish film to keep Lacke to tie into the theme of revenge and escalating violence, how he was driven to (attempt to) kill Eli for taking away his wife and best friend. Yet both films manage to capture this theme with the conflicts between Owen/Oskar and his bullies, how he wants to get back at them, smashes the guy's ear, they want to get back at him, they attack him in the pool, etc.
That was what I got from Lacke. He delivers a speech about sticking by your friends which has tragic consequences for Virginia. It occurs to me that in Lacke's last scene both he and Oskar have knifes and in both cases they really don't know what to do with them.

Jimmy, on the other hand, has no problem using his knife. :twisted:

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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by a_contemplative_life » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:40 pm

drakkar wrote:Virginia plays an important role in LTROI as a parallel to Eli, in showing the difference between an adult vampire and a child. We get glimpses of Virginias feelings through the process, ending with suicide as she cannot bear the consequences.
In LMI Virginia is reduced to a mindless arm gnawing zombie, and we are left wondering what bearing that has on Abby. Is she also a zombie like creature playing a role?
I was never comfortable with the cop entering the apartment alone. That was something an amateur wino like Lacke could do, not a pro.
Well, true--but a little more believable, maybe, in '80's Los Alamos.
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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by BurgerPrince » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:44 pm

I guess the scene where she chewed her own arm open, which was in the book, was to show the vampire's desperation to feed on blood, but also more importantly what happens when the vampire is exposed to sunlight...

Jetboy wrote "It isn't just just a love story, its about the nature of love, what it means, how it can change a person." Very true.

Drakkar wrote, "Virginia plays an important role in LTROI as a parallel to Eli, in showing the difference between an adult vampire and a child. We get glimpses of Virginias feelings through the process, ending with suicide as she cannot bear the consequences." True, Virginia would have helped to illustrate the burden of having to kill people on one's mind, but I think both films did a good job at that on their own. (Eli's crying, Abby's "I'm nothing," the clear stress Owen felt as he watched the cop die, Thomas's "Maybe I'm just tired of this," etc.)
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Re: The Policeman vs Lacke

Post by RapeSoul » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:34 pm

I actually like that the policeman was used for that purpose. I thought that Let the Right One In was kind of out of focus. I like that all the side stories from Let The Right One In were taken out because it gave the movie more room to focus on Abby and Owen's relationship. I didn't care much for Lacke, Jocke, Virginia, etc. in Let The Right One In. I thought adding the policeman made Let Me In make more sense than Let The Right One In. Abby having to leave right after the policeman was killed made more sense.
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