The incubation period of the infection?

[metoo]

It's hard to say, but I tend to think of Virginia taking a little longer because Eli's attack was interrupted. I think Oskar would go faster because there'd be direct blood-to-blood contact.

One thing that we haven't really discussed is the vector of the infection. It can't just be saliva, because Eli and Oskar kiss without passing the infection. Or maybe the saliva can do it, if it gets into the victim's bloodstream? But if that were true, Eli would've put Oskar at risk with a true kiss because there would be the chance that he might swallow some of it.

Additionally, Tommy might have become infected. He wasn't and Eli was confident that he wouldn't be. Eli likely has some knowledge of the infection that we have not, and maybe this includes that saliva isn't infectious.

As of the vector of infection, I have imagined a complex setup, involving many agents. Some may be similar to prions, other viruslike, and further others might be single-cell organisms. Additionally, there is a magical component...

[a_contemplative_life]

It's a little hard to sort out the saliva angle. As you point out, Tommy was exposed to it when Eli extracted blood from his vein with her mouth. We don't really know what happened to him over the long run, but there was nothing to indicate by the end of the novel that he had become infected. So how was his case different from Virginia's?

[sauvin]

Maybe the pathogen in question somewhat resembles a sponge.

[metoo]

It's a little hard to sort out the saliva angle. As you point out, Tommy was exposed to it when Eli extracted blood from his vein with her mouth. We don't really know what happened to him over the long run, but there was nothing to indicate by the end of the novel that he had become infected. So how was his case different from Virginia's?

Virginia was bitten, Tommy was cut with a razor blade. That's the difference. Well, there's one more: Eli's attack on Virginia was quickly interrupted by Lacke's shoe, while there was ample time for Eli to suck Tommy's arm. Anyway, the main difference would be teeth vs. razor blade.

Someone put forward the idea that Eli's sharpened teeth is part of the vampire, while his normal teeth are human, and that this would make the difference. By biting, the infection comes in direct contact with the victim, and this is the path of infection. Personally, I prefer to think that Eli's entire body, down to every single cell, is equally infected, so that explanation of the different outcomes doesn't do it in for me.

I prefer my own idea, that Eli sharpening his teeth causes his gums to bleed a little. The bleeding might be microscopic and still work, so my idea doesn't necessary conflict with Oskar not observing any blood in Eli's mouth when Eli displayed his vampire teeth.

sauvin: I didn't get the sponge thing. Please explain!

[sauvin]

sauvin: I didn't get the sponge thing. Please explain!

Two quotes from wikipedia stick out in my mind, for some odd reason.

Sponges have unspecialized cells that can transform into other types and that often migrate between the main cell layers and the mesohyl in the process. Sponges do not have nervous, digestive or circulatory systems.

Sponges have three asexual methods of reproduction: after fragmentation; by budding; and by producing gemmules.

Surprisingly enough, they are classified as animals.

There's a passage in the novel I dimly remember reading about some kind of growth on the heart that would seem to be comprised of brain matter to somebody who might perchance to examine it. We can't know how much time it takes for this growth to achieve a "viable" size, but it may be that even in a nascent state it can exert the kinds of control intimated by the account of Virginia's experience within a few dozen hours. What accretes to the host's heart, however, might not be the sum total of the invading organism's mass; like the sponge, there may be some kind of protoanimal coursing about in the host's blood stream.

Complex instinctive behaviour does not necessarily imply brain size; my gerbils would squeak this to us, no doubt, if we could only understand squeak.

What's battering my poor little brain at the moment is: just how does Eli come to know that a kiss isn't dangerous?

[a_contemplative_life]

It's a little hard to sort out the saliva angle. As you point out, Tommy was exposed to it when Eli extracted blood from his vein with her mouth. We don't really know what happened to him over the long run, but there was nothing to indicate by the end of the novel that he had become infected. So how was his case different from Virginia's?

Virginia was bitten, Tommy was cut with a razor blade. That's the difference. Well, there's one more: Eli's attack on Virginia was quickly interrupted by Lacke's shoe, while there was ample time for Eli to suck Tommy's arm. Anyway, the main difference would be teeth vs. razor blade.

Someone put forward the idea that Eli's sharpened teeth is part of the vampire, while his normal teeth are human, and that this would make the difference. By biting, the infection comes in direct contact with the victim, and this is the path of infection. Personally, I prefer to think that Eli's entire body, down to every single cell, is equally infected, so that explanation of the different outcomes doesn't do it in for me.

I prefer my own idea, that Eli sharpening his teeth causes his gums to bleed a little. The bleeding might be microscopic and still work, so my idea doesn't necessary conflict with Oskar not observing any blood in Eli's mouth when Eli displayed his vampire teeth.

sauvin: I didn't get the sponge thing. Please explain!

Well, the teeth are certainly part of his prime vampire gear, and there is something magical about his ability to transform them at will. So maybe you're on to something here.

[Child_Of_The_Corn]

Isn't it more like the aids virus. The aids virus invades another cell and rewrite that cell's genetic coding. It primarily is transmitted through direct blood contact not through saliva... so yeah they can kiss And as stated, the infection is similar to brain neurons, it must also needs to infect the brain and rewrites the brains genetic makeup to become somewhat sentient to control the host.. hence the need to sever the connection to the brain before the infection has a chance to get up there. A very simplified view I know but just a thought to further the discussion

[metoo]

Sponges have unspecialized cells that can transform into other types and that often migrate between the main cell layers and the mesohyl in the process. Sponges do not have nervous, digestive or circulatory systems.

OK, I see. Eli's is able to grow claws et cetera, that is, his tissues can transform. This might imply that individual cells can transform between cell types, like cells in sponges can.

There's a passage in the novel I dimly remember reading about some kind of growth on the heart that would seem to be comprised of brain matter to somebody who might perchance to examine it. We can't know how much time it takes for this growth to achieve a "viable" size, but it may be that even in a nascent state it can exert the kinds of control intimated by the account of Virginia's experience within a few dozen hours. What accretes to the host's heart, however, might not be the sum total of the invading organism's mass; like the sponge, there may be some kind of protoanimal coursing about in the host's blood stream.

Complex instinctive behaviour does not necessarily imply brain size; my gerbils would squeak this to us, no doubt, if we could only understand squeak.

Eve insects display complex instinctive behaviour, using a brain the size of a grain of sand. Larger animals have the ability to act surprisingly intelligent. Compare the stunts that ravens can perform with their walnut-sized brains.

What's battering my poor little brain at the moment is: just how does Eli come to know that a kiss isn't dangerous?

Yes, that's something I have contemplated, too. That, and Virginia's instinctive knowledge that she needs an invitation, which is rather a complex concept.

But the simple explanation might be that Eli learnt what he needed from the vampire lord. We don't know what Eli's life was like at that period of his life, and how long it lasted. (Only that I think it lasted for many years.) Maybe the vampire lord held Eli as a pet, and as an apprentice. He might, in a perverted way, have wanted a child of his own. If so, the vampire lord would have made sure that Eli was taught everything his master considered necessary. I have this image of Eli, dressed up in the finest clothes of the era, but still a prisoner inside the castle. As time went by, his confinement would be less by walls and locks than the insight of what he had become. He could walk out through the door, but never leave.

[metoo]

Isn't it more like the aids virus. The aids virus invades another cell and rewrite that cell's genetic coding. It primarily is transmitted through direct blood contact not through saliva... so yeah they can kiss And as stated, the infection is similar to brain neurons, it must also needs to infect the brain and rewrites the brains genetic makeup to become somewhat sentient to control the host.. hence the need to sever the connection to the brain before the infection has a chance to get up there. A very simplified view I know but just a thought to further the discussion

I agree to the virus similarity. Whatever the agent is, it does profoundly transform the host's body, down to the cell level (or even beyond that, it seems the internal cell machinery would need to be changed in order to provide the power end energy Eli can muster).

[dongregg]

Whatever the agent is, it does profoundly transform the host's body, down to the cell level (or even beyond that, it seems the internal cell machinery would need to be changed in order to provide the power end energy Eli can muster).

The Tiger
William Blake

Tiger Tiger. burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye.
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies.
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand, dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat.
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp.
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?

When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile His work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?

Tiger Tiger burning bright,
In the forests of the night:
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?