Håkan and Eli’s Gender

[metoo]

I don't think Eli gave Haakan's life meaning, but merely an aim, an objective. With Eli, Oskar could believe in himself, etc, and was in love; with Eli, Haakan merely had a reason not to kill himself, and could delude himself into thinking he was in love.

How do you know if you are merely deluding yourself, or if you're actually in love?

It isn't perfectly clear that that Håkan was actively seeking his own death by that heavy drinking. If Håkan had wanted to end his life, he would have had many quicker and more reliable options.

There was no particular hurry, and as Evelia says, he probably lacked the guts to end it in a quicker way.

I would think it takes more guts to kill oneself slowly, than doing it quickly...

[Jameron]

But he only wanted to live if that was with Eli. I don't see, other than that, any real difference with his pre-Eli self. He still has plenty of self-loathing, he still has no connection to any human being other than Eli, no aim or purpose in life (other than Eli), etc.

Can you point to something that nails that down. Are there any of Håkan's thoughts or words in the book, that spell it out that he only wanted to live if he was with Eli?

If you're already killing yourself, I don't think it's a huge sacrifice. Living would be a greater sacrifice in such conditions. A sacrifice is only a sacrifice if you give up something you don't want to lose.

He had stopped killing himself when Eli led him away from the bench where they met. I can't agree that his going out and killing for Eli was another form of slow suicide. Why would he want to continue to kill himself when Eli had given him something to live for?

Yes, Haakan was delusional.

Delusional or not, he wasn't extorting sexual favours out of Eli by withholding food.

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[Jameron]

I'm sorry, but I can't accept your assessment that Håkan's preparedness to die for Eli wasn't "much of a sacrifice, since life without her would be meaningless". For anyone to willingly give their life to save another is always a huge thing.

I think that to "willingly give their own life" is only a sacrifice to the extent that someone values his or her life. To a suicidal/depressed person killing oneself would be a release. I believe Hakan was suicidal before he met Eli and his pouring acid onto his own face was only an attempt to partake in the idealized love that he longs for but could never find as a pedophile.

Hakan did "lay his life at the feet of another" but only when doing so was what he wanted to begin with (suicide). He could not do so when it came to controlling his urges when dealing with Eli. Therefore, his sacrifice is not as selfless as it would appear.

Yes Håkan was suicidal, until Eli rescued him (she has a habit of rescuing people, this murderous vampire). I don't recall him thinking about suicide after that moment.

As for "pouring acid onto his own face was only an attempt to partake in the idealized love that he longs for but could never find as a pedophile." ... you lost me. I genuinely can't discern what you're getting at. Do you want to give me the dumbed down version?

I'm not sure why you think that he still wanted to commit suicide. There is nothing to that effect in Håkan's thoughts before he poured the acid on his face. The way it is written, it is purely a sacrifice and not a welcome conclusion to all his efforts of slowly killing himself. The first eleven words of the following section tells me that it was something he was not looking forward to. What I read here is resignation, not a welcome conclusion.

• Over. It was all over. There was only one thing left. The noises around him disappeared, his field of vision narrowed to a tunnel as he turned back to his bag. Through the tunnel he saw his hand reach down into the bag and take out the jam jar.
  He sat down hard on his backside with the jar in his hand, unscrewed the lid.
  Before they got the door open. Before they managed to pull his hood off his face.
  Through all the screaming and blows to the door he thought about his beloved. The time they had had together. He conjured up the image of his beloved as an angel. A boy angel flying down from heaven, spreading his wings, who was going to pick him up. Carry him off. Take him to a place where they would always be together. For ever.
  The door flew open and banged into the wall. The boy continued to scream. There were three men standing outside, more or less dressed. They stared uncomprehendingly at the scene before them.
  Håkan nodded slowly, accepting it. Then he shouted, ‘Eli! Eli!’ and poured the concentrated acid over his face.

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[lombano]

I don't think Eli gave Haakan's life meaning, but merely an aim, an objective. With Eli, Oskar could believe in himself, etc, and was in love; with Eli, Haakan merely had a reason not to kill himself, and could delude himself into thinking he was in love.

How do you know if you are merely deluding yourself, or if you're actually in love?

In Haakan's case, that he doesn't love Eli at all but what he'd like Eli to be - an adult in a child's body.

I would think it takes more guts to kill oneself slowly, than doing it quickly...

Logically, yes, but people aren't very logical. Self-neglect, for example, is surely a far more common form of self-destruction than violent, sudden suicide.

[metoo]

How do you know if you are merely deluding yourself, or if you're actually in love?

In Haakan's case, that he doesn't love Eli at all but what he'd like Eli to be - an adult in a child's body.

I didn't ask how you know if somebody else is deluding him/herself, but how you can know this about yourself. So tell me, how do you know?

I would think it takes more guts to kill oneself slowly, than doing it quickly...

Logically, yes, but people aren't very logical. Self-neglect, for example, is surely a far more common form of self-destruction than violent, sudden suicide.

Så Håkan was an example of self neglect? Then he wasn't deliberately committing suicide. Thats logical.

[lombano]

I didn't ask how you know if somebody else is deluding him/herself, but how you can know this about yourself. So tell me, how do you know?

You probably don't, at least not for certain. But we're not Haakan.

Are there any of Håkan's thoughts or words in the book, that spell it out that he only wanted to live if he was with Eli?

He finds himself remembering, and agreeing with Nietzsche's interpretation of Socrates' last words as "life is a disease," and thus something one ought to desire to be cured of. There is nothing to suggest that he did want to live even without Eli.

Delusional or not, he wasn't extorting sexual favours out of Eli by withholding food.

No, he was refusing to go out and get it and bargaining for sexual favors when Eli was in a position of relative weakness and Haakan was using the only means of coercion he had. Again, a distinction without a difference.

[metoo]

I didn't ask how you know if somebody else is deluding him/herself, but how you can know this about yourself. So tell me, how do you know?

You probably don't, at least not for certain. But we're not Haakan.

So Håkan is not like me and you, you say? He isn't human like us?

Are there any of Håkan's thoughts or words in the book, that spell it out that he only wanted to live if he was with Eli?

He finds himself remembering, and agreeing with Nietzsche's interpretation of Socrates' last words as "life is a disease," and thus something one ought to desire to be cured of. There is nothing to suggest that he did want to live even without Eli.

I disagree. Håkan was settling with the idea of continuing his life as a prisoner, reading books, when Eli appeared on the hospital windowsill.

[EEA]

But would Hakan want to?
I don't think he does. To me in that part he is just wondering. I think if he did try to go back to his old life, it would only remain him of what he lost. And he would seek a way to die.
Plus going to prison for a long time is a death sentence in a way. Maybe with each book Hakan reads, is a tortured, is a way to kill himself, because he has already lost everything. So he chooses to die slowly.
And if he did want to continue to live once he saw Eli he would have not gone to say goodbye, and instead he could have pretended to be sleep.
But I can see that it could be argue that Hakan finds possible a life without Eli. If Eli didn't showed up Hakan then decides to spend the rest of his life reading, maybe spending the rest of his life in his memories, thinking back about his old life.

[lombano]

I didn't ask how you know if somebody else is deluding him/herself, but how you can know this about yourself. So tell me, how do you know?

You probably don't, at least not for certain. But we're not Haakan.

So Håkan is not like me and you, you say? He isn't human like us?

We see Haakan externally - we can judge him by his choices and actions, even if he doesn't do so himself.

Are there any of Håkan's thoughts or words in the book, that spell it out that he only wanted to live if he was with Eli?

He finds himself remembering, and agreeing with Nietzsche's interpretation of Socrates' last words as "life is a disease," and thus something one ought to desire to be cured of. There is nothing to suggest that he did want to live even without Eli.

I disagree. Håkan was settling with the idea of continuing his life as a prisoner, reading books, when Eli appeared on the hospital windowsill.

[/quote]

Only because he had little choice in the matter. IIRC, he had tried to kill himself again in the hospital. Eli's appearance at the windowsill immediately made suicide more viable (Eli feeding off him was Haakan's idea).

[cmfireflies]

As for "pouring acid onto his own face was only an attempt to partake in the idealized love that he longs for but could never find as a pedophile." ... you lost me. I genuinely can't discern what you're getting at. Do you want to give me the dumbed down version?

.

What I was trying to say is that Hakan seems to be quite conflicted, torn between the ugly reality of his own pedophilia and his idealized notion of romantic love. The one thing that seems capable of overcoming his lust is his self-disgust towards the nature of his sexuality. I think there were two instances where he couldn't bring himself to complete the act: the boy in the bathroom and the scene with the other pedophiles.

What he believes loves to be, what he wants with Eli, is to able to happily "lay his life at the feet of another" who would do the same for him, (I think)-hence the bargaining: "If I thought you would love me anyway, I might do it...." It's true that he want sexual gratification without shame and he see the opportunity for that in Eli, but I think what he really dreamed of was more than sex, it was a meaningful reciprocal relationship with someone he finds "beautiful." The kind of love written about by Shakespeare. But too bad for him, he's a pedo and his ideal beauty is incompatible with his ideal of love. The closest he can come to is Eli, not only because Eli's has a child's body, but because in a sense Eli's completely dependent on him. In Hakan's mind, Eli gives him the chance to live out his notion of "love" with all the drama of any classical text: Hakan is hero who endures unspeakable horror for the sake of keeping his "love" alive. That is the purpose that Eli gives him: to turn the unbearable shame associated with his lust into something that approaches nobility in its self-sacrifice. The worse he is at killing, the more he suffers to get Eli's food, the stronger and purer his love for Eli is. With Eli, Hakan can play the noble hero who gives everything for the sake of his beloved, and escape his real self as a predator of children.

That's why I say that he always wanted to die. And I think that's the central idea of why people say Hakan's delusional or that his love isn't "real." It's not real in the sense that Hakan's willingness to kill and die is at least in part motivated by his desire to be something other than a pedophile, it is self-aggrandizing and far from the sacrifice he imagines it to be.

(I hope that makes more sense.)