Eli's Androgyny

[metoo]

"I don't think I want to know how their thought process works..."

And quite frankly, neither do I. Once leaving childhood, nobody can comprehend, or pretend to understand how children think.
We are closed off to that forever. I work with them every day and make no claim to really understanding them. And it's right that I don't or should pretend that I do.
Re-read the last line of the novel.

This is only true to some extent. Humans are - by evolution – equipped to understand the inner life of other people. It is unavoidable, our brains do that for us whether we want it to or not. But evolution has not given us a perfect capacity, it is only as good as has historically been required for our survival.

Also, that adults would be "closed off" from children sounds to me a lot like an excuse for not trying. Children are no more mysterious than people of other ages, and no less. But you have to communicate.

[jcckidz]

I also suspect his testosterone levels would still be quite low at this point, and non-existent after the fact, making him for all practical purposes, truely androgynous, even before being turned.

Thank you for your kind words What do you mean when you say that you suspect his testosterone levels would be "non-existent after the fact." After what fact are you referring to here, the castration or the turning into a vampire?
Thank you!

[PeteMork]

I also suspect his testosterone levels would still be quite low at this point, and non-existent after the fact, making him for all practical purposes, truely androgynous, even before being turned.

Thank you for your kind words What do you mean when you say that you suspect his testosterone levels would be "non-existent after the fact." After what fact are you referring to here, the castration or the turning into a vampire?
Thank you!

By 'after the fact,' I meant after the castration and penectomy. At that point, his body would no longer produce testosterone. What would happen to his male chromosomes after being turned into a vampire, is anyone's guess.

[cory]

I said this on other post about Eli acting more like a girl due to being castrated. I dont agree with this at all. In the book Eli is very aggressive. To telling Oskar to fight back. In there first meeting when Oskar calls Eli stupid Eli confronts him and Oskar backs down. When there playing in the basement Eli wants to be the monster not the maiden. Even when there laying in bed Eli is holding Oskar from behind a way a guy would. My wife never holds me from behind in bed! lol In fact befour I found out later in the book that Eli was a he...I remember thinking to myself wow this girl is very boyish. And thought her aggressiveness was due to being a vampire.

I think its hard for people to see Eli as a boy because of the actress in the movie. This is the image thats branded in our minds. But when reading the book Eli acts and behaves like a boy. The reason Eli wears the dress I think is because of to reason. He knows thats how Oskar first saw him as. Also its how he connects with his mother and sister since he looks so much like them.

[ofelia]

Also its how he connects with his mother and sister since he looks so much like them.

It doesn't say anything about his sister..

By 'after the fact,' I meant after the castration and penectomy. At that point, his body would no longer produce testosterone. What would happen to his male chromosomes after being turned into a vampire, is anyone's guess.

I don't see why your chromosomes would change. The vampire (the parasite) seems to only change whatever parts of you it needs to, it doesn't have anything to do with the gender of the infected. But I like the idea of being truly androgynous. I think maybe this topic wouldn't have gotten so much discussion if there was a way to refer to people without gender in English... if you're reading it in Swedish Eli is never referred to as "she" except when the scene is from Oskar's point of view, or occasionally as "that girl" if it's Virginia or one of the others thinking about Eli. I just think it's interesting to consider that. To me it captures 'true androgyny' in a way that was really refreshing, since such a way of writing doesn't exist in our language. Man I hate English sometimes..

[gkmoberg1]

Can somebody show a short example of how this works in Swedish? I understand how the translators dealt with this in English and German - I have both for LTROI - but as I do not know Swedish, I am curious how this is done.

[ofelia]

Sure. It's a little hard to understand because we don't have a real parallel, but when you refer to a person it would be 'han' for male, 'hon' for female (him/her = honom/henne). But Eli is always either called by name or using reflexive verbs. When you use a reflexive the form for he/she is the same, "sig". It follows me/you/him (mig/dig/sig) but it's more like in French, the difference between "tu" and "toi." I don't think we really have that in English...
It also helps that nouns have gender. So often the gender of the person doesn't come into consequence. For example "her hand" is "sin hand", it doesn't change if it's "his hand."

Here's a passage, where Eli is out looking for food, which will eventually be Virginia:

Ett ilande i tändernas rötter när Eli tänkte dem vassa. ... Eli bet sig försiktigt i underläppen, en halvmåneformad rad av nålar punkterade nästen huden.

(There was) a slight pain in the roots of (his) teeth as Eli thought them sharp. (tänderna = teeth) ... Eli bit him/herself carefully in the lower lip, a half-moon shaped row of needles almost pierced the skin.

This is my translation. Basically in English any time you talk about someone's body you have to refer to them by gender. But Eli's body parts have their own gender (weird, I know ).

(When Lacke sees Eli attack Virginia:)

Barnet ställde sig på alla fyra som ett kattdjur, berett till språng. Ansiktet förandrades när barnet drog upp sina läppar och Lacke kunde se raderna av vassa tänder...

Translation: The child was crouched on all fours like an animal, ready to spring. His/her face changed as the child drew up his/her lips and Lacke could see rows of sharp teeth...

The colored parts take gender in English, but not in Swedish. Ansiktet just means "the face" if it's by itself; the "his/her" is implied. The word for child always has the same gender, whether they are a boy or girl.

Hope this helps One final note I should add is JAL's short, clipped writing style, where a character may do lots of actions in the course of one sentence, without reusing their name or pronoun. This seems to be how he writes, but it's useful in this story in particular.

[a_contemplative_life]

I said this on other post about Eli acting more like a girl due to being castrated. I dont agree with this at all. In the book Eli is very aggressive. To telling Oskar to fight back. In there first meeting when Oskar calls Eli stupid Eli confronts him and Oskar backs down. When there playing in the basement Eli wants to be the monster not the maiden. Even when there laying in bed Eli is holding Oskar from behind a way a guy would. My wife never holds me from behind in bed! lol In fact befour I found out later in the book that Eli was a he...I remember thinking to myself wow this girl is very boyish. And thought her aggressiveness was due to being a vampire.

I think its hard for people to see Eli as a boy because of the actress in the movie. This is the image thats branded in our minds. But when reading the book Eli acts and behaves like a boy. The reason Eli wears the dress I think is because of to reason. He knows thats how Oskar first saw him as. Also its how he connects with his mother and sister since he looks so much like them.

I might add that Eli does not hesitate to suggest that Oskar use his knife to defend himself. Proves your point even further.

[gkmoberg1]

Thank you, ofelia. Yes, that is terrific; it really shows off how the language helps disguise the child's gender.

[gkmoberg1]

So finster die Nacht (the German translation) has this as the text for your second example. I'll use this to show how German provides a similar cover - at least at this point.

(When Lacke sees Eli attack Virginia:)

Barnet ställde sig på alla fyra som ett kattdjur, berett till språng. Ansiktet förandrades när barnet drog upp sina läppar och Lacke kunde se raderna av vassa tänder...

Translation: The child was crouched on all fours like an animal, ready to spring. His/her face changed as the child drew up his/her lips and Lacke could see rows of sharp teeth...

The colored parts take gender in English, but not in Swedish. Ansiktet just means "the face" if it's by itself; the "his/her" is implied. The word for child always has the same gender, whether they are a boy or girl.

Das Kind stellte sich wie eine Katze auf alle viere, war bereit zum Sprung. Sein Gesicht veränderte sich, als es die Lippen bleckte und Lacke die Reihen scharfer Zähne in Dunkelheit aufblitzen sah.

Translation (mine): The child posed like a cat on all fours, ready to pounce. Its/His face changed as it (the face) bared [the] lips and Lacke saw rows of sharp teeth flash in the darkness.

The "Sein" could refer to either a 'his' or 'its'. However given the prior sentence's subject 'Das Kind' ( 'The child', singular, neuter-gender noun ), 'Sein' would be likely seen to reflect the gender of Kind ('child') as its reference in the second sentence. Had the text read "Ihre Gesicht veränderte sich..." that would clearly indicate 'her' - yet this can avoided, and so has the translator, Paul Berf, done this. Meanwhile, die Lippen ("the lips", plural noun) simply becomes 'the lips' without any reference to the possessor's gender.

Fun, looking at languages.