Triumph vs. Tragedy

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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by sauvin » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:26 am

lombano wrote:When Owen is rescued at the pool, his face suggests to me that he would have rather drowned because he knows the horror that awaits him as he lies at Abby's blood-covered feet.
I saw lots of different emotions flitting by in rapid succession. Among them, I thought I saw gratitude and awe, but there doesn't seem to be any support for a claim that his was a reaction of unalloyed joy. I also saw fear, and possibly resignation and traces of revulsion.
lombano wrote:With Oskar, the imagery is of birth or baptism, of starting a new life. It's just one scene, but one that illustrates the fundamental difference between both films: the cycle is just about the worst possible outcome, far worse than a suicide pact, for a example.
Is this necessarily true? Resistance to change can occur even in one so young, and in Owen's case, at least, it seems that very big changes are in store, and he knows it. Very big changes are in store for Oskar, too, but maybe that fact just isn't as immediately obvious while he's still trying to collect his wits. He did almost drown just now, remember.
lombano wrote:Abby, obviously profoundly unhappy, clings to life seemingly solely out of survival instinct, while Owen is too weak-willed to defy her.
Both boys were strongly enough willed to swing the pole at a bully's head. Either boy knew at some level what his girlfriend was before knocking on her apartment door to demand some answers, and knew with greater certainty when she came knocking on his door seeking reconciliation. Both boys reacted with horror when the bleeding started and took immediate, effective action to stop it, with Owen explicitly expressing concern that his cavalier behaviour could have cost her her life. Both boys acted in her defence against a far larger enemy - with Owen facing a trained and armed (and possibly blooded) murderer rather than a sodden and dissolute stewbum.
lombano wrote:LMI is thus the darkest, most pessimistic incarnation of the story. That, aside from other faults like a much weaker score and cinematography (and I wasn't that impressed with Owen as a character) and a lack of subtlety, is why I far prefer LTROI.
My initial reaction to the movie included a marked antipathy towards the music ("too [BEEP] screechy!"). I can't comment too much on the rest of the moviemaking except to note that LMI tended to be shot in a pissy shade of yellow, where LTROI tended more towards a bluish white.

LTROI finished up on a much more uplifting note; first time or three I watched it for real, it left me with what must have been a stupid sappy sloppy smile on my face. Love Has Conquered All, it seemed. If you can let go of your humanity and let old dreams die, the kids really do move on to what very well could be a "happily ever after" for them - but only for them.

The thing about LTROI's final minutes, though, is that the theme that played was very complex, by turns joyful and mournful. Slow, sedate, sweet, sorrowful - and if you actually watch the credits all the way through to the end, you'll see where the background turns red for a few moments.

As I recall, that stupid, sappy smile on my face lasted for quite a while until it occurred to me that Oskar was 40 or so now (at the time), and spent a whole boring afternoon shift doing nothing but throwing boxes from one side of the room to the other and wondering what life had been like for him in the intervening years assuming he'd not been turned.The picture that emerged wasn't pretty.

This is one of the myriad beauties of TA's movie, that it say so much without actually saying much of anything explicitly. In this vein, I found Reeves' movie more honest, if also less appealing.

The only other major difference for me between the two movies is the impression of Eli gradually rediscovering what it is to be human, and Oskar (for some reason I can't put a finger on) does seem stronger than Owen, or maybe just more stoic.

Abby, on the other hand, was an emotionally drained preteen lugging around some immensely painful baggage when the movie started, and remained an emotionally drained preteen lugging around some immensely painful baggage towards its end. She seemed to know a lot more about how to catch a man's eye than Eli did, and seem to rely on that knowledge more. Before the pool scene, Abby and Owen didn't so much discover romance, redemption or anything so emotionally stirring, having seemed instead just to be a pair of latchkey kids who'd latched onto each other.

But, hey, what do you want? Either movie is a monster movie!
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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by cmfireflies » Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:33 am

But, hey, what do you want? Either movie is a monster movie!
You'll never convince me that Eli is a monster though, while Abby is truly despicable, perhaps more so than novel Hakan...
"When is a monster not a monster? Oh, when you love it."

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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by sauvin » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:48 am

cmfireflies wrote:
But, hey, what do you want? Either movie is a monster movie!
You'll never convince me that Eli is a monster though, while Abby is truly despicable, perhaps more so than novel Hakan...
I know at least a couple young women who would characterise Haakan as a particularly vile and repugnant form of vampire...
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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by lombano » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:33 am

sauvin wrote:Both boys were strongly enough willed to swing the pole at a bully's head. Either boy knew at some level what his girlfriend was before knocking on her apartment door to demand some answers, and knew with greater certainty when she came knocking on his door seeking reconciliation. Both boys reacted with horror when the bleeding started and took immediate, effective action to stop it, with Owen explicitly expressing concern that his cavalier behaviour could have cost her her life. Both boys acted in her defence against a far larger enemy - with Owen facing a trained and armed (and possibly blooded) murderer rather than a sodden and dissolute stewbum.
But Oskar hitting the bully seemed to be doing something he wanted to do but had lacked confidence to do it, whereas Owen seemed to just be doing Abby's bidding. And Owen might assume a cop would be at least somewhat restrained by rules, whereas a vigilante trying to murder a child in cold blood would not be. Both kind of knew their girlfriends wouldn't kill them.
sauvin wrote: Is this necessarily true? Resistance to change can occur even in one so young, and in Owen's case, at least, it seems that very big changes are in store, and he knows it. Very big changes are in store for Oskar, too, but maybe that fact just isn't as immediately obvious while he's still trying to collect his wits. He did almost drown just now, remember.
I don't just mean their expressions, but the whole imagery of the scene - looking into Eli's eyes versus lying at Abby's blood-covered feet (themselves repeatedly used to point out her vampiric weirdness), etc.

sauvin wrote:Abby, on the other hand, was an emotionally drained preteen lugging around some immensely painful baggage when the movie started, and remained an emotionally drained preteen lugging around some immensely painful baggage towards its end. She seemed to know a lot more about how to catch a man's eye than Eli did, and seem to rely on that knowledge more. Before the pool scene, Abby and Owen didn't so much discover romance, redemption or anything so emotionally stirring, having seemed instead just to be a pair of latchkey kids who'd latched onto each other.
Agreed.
cmfireflies wrote: You'll never convince me that Eli is a monster though, while Abby is truly despicable, perhaps more so than novel Hakan...
Oh come on, give Abby a break (I can't believe I'm saying this...).
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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by cmfireflies » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:13 am

Hakan hated who he was so much that he willingly became a murderer in order to think of himself as something other than a pedophile.

It was delusion and weak and corrupt, but it was an effort to change nonetheless. Abby makes no such attempt at all.
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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by sauvin » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:50 am

cmfireflies wrote:Hakan hated who he was so much that he willingly became a murderer in order to think of himself as something other than a pedophile.

It was delusion and weak and corrupt, but it was an effort to change nonetheless. Abby makes no such attempt at all.
What realistic attempt could she make that doesn't involve the rising sun?
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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by metoo » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:36 pm

cmfireflies wrote:Hakan hated who he was so much that he willingly became a murderer in order to think of himself as something other than a pedophile.
I see no indications in the novel that Håkan hated being a paedophile.

However, he did hate the way he had been treated by society, by first being forced to resign from his job, then having his house burnt down, and then not getting the insurance money. But his response to all that was to decide to drink himself to death in public, not to become a serial killer.
But then Eli showed up, and changed everything.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by lombano » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:30 pm

Book Haakan enters Eli's service to be near Eli ("You're going to be with me") and tries to starve Eli into sexual submission ("You'd better start loving me, then"). He could just walk out one morning (which neither Eli nor Abby could do without dying) if he hates killing so much, but the proof is in the pudding. The only things that distinguish him from a pure, complete, if delusional, monster are his restraint in the library scene and at the party. Abby, whatever her faults, never kills without need and doesn't have a credible alternative other than suicide. Besides, I hold adults more morally responsible for their actions than kids.
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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by seigezunt » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:46 pm

I also agree with what drakkar and the others have said. Abby's relationship with Owen feels predatory, whereas Eli/Oskar is complicated. You feel a redemption there, and love, in LTROI. I feel that LMI, in apparently trying to be more like the book, completely misses out on what made LTROI so touching and transformative, and ultimately misses out on the parts of the novel that distinguish it from just another gory vampire story.
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Re: Triumph vs. Tragedy

Post by cmfireflies » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:41 am

The only things that distinguish him from a pure, complete, if delusional, monster are his restraint in the library scene and at the party
That's it. That's why I say that Hakan hates being a pedophile. And what's interesting is that he's so repulsed by what he is that he willingly became a murderer just so that he can cling to a fantasy of selflessly sacrificing for love, i.e., being in Eli's service. And the key is I don't think Hakan really has the stomach for violence, so his killing for Eli is radical change. Now, don't get me wrong, he's still a monster, and I'm not saying that Hakan is at all sympathetic, but he tried to change.

I'm not comparing the crimes of Hakan or Abby. Rather, given that neither could change their needs, I'm saying that Hakan took more drastic measures (although ultimately futile) to escape what he was. There's no indication that Abby even tries to change (regarding her relationship, she's resigned to suffering and making people around her suffer.)

As for what Abby could have done, she could have turned Owen. Or rather, the movie could have shown that she considered turning Owen to spare him from Thomas's fate. Now, I'm not saying that turning Owen makes LMI triumphant, (it may turn out as futile as Hakan's attempt) but the fact that Abby isn't even interested in thinking about that possibility shows that she's pretty much given up, which is fine, but she has to drag Owen into another cycle, which is pretty despicable.
"When is a monster not a monster? Oh, when you love it."

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