So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

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Klesk
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by Klesk » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:16 pm

lombano wrote: If Oskar relished violence, he would've hit Conny more than once or tried hitting the other, too, and not tried to dissuade him from attacking until the last possible moment. Oskar employs the absolute minimum of force that would still mean effective self-defense. I don't think Oskar's exhilaration is at the violence, but at his victory over Conny, which I think is an important distinction.
In the novel they had to bring Conny into the hospital. That is not the absolute minimum. This is too much and the adults should intervene at this point to defuse the conflict between the bullies and Oscar. It is the victory through violence and this exhilarates him.
lombano wrote: And Eli's advice would work with the garden variety of bully, and in any case Conny is an obvious coward and it would've worked like a charm had it not been for Jimmy (Conny is such a coward that though his gang outnumbers Oskar three to one once Oskar does hit back he runs to his older brother to save him - we also don't see him pick on anyone who will fight back, however feebly).
No, he doesn't run to his brother. His brother offers him to help, like Eli offers to help Oscar. I don't think either it would work with most bullies. Eye for an eye or in this case eye for an ear. That is something you have to expect in most cases, when adults decide to look away. It is a little bit like Lords of the flies. In my childhood some conflicts escalated to an extent, where I was attacked with a scissor (it hit the door not me) or my opponent threated to commit suicide. Well at this point I became very sober even without any intervention by adults, but on the other hand there will be always an aftermath.


lombano wrote: That depends on what is meant by "necessary." It certainly put an end to their bullying of Oskar. As far as Eli knew, they'd shown themselves to be pitiless and not easily deterred, and not run-of-the-mill bullies but genuine threats to Oskar's life. She dispatched them quickly and with the only means immediately at her disposal. She did not torture them or inflict drawn-out deaths on them. Given what Eli knows, she's merely applying overwhelming force to a problem that had proved intractable with more moderate approaches (yes, killing Jimmy would've been enough, or even just breaking his arms, but Eli has no way of knowing that).
It is a kind of (shooting)rampage and it has to end this way, otherwise it wouldn't be a horror novel/movie. But I think it would be enough for Eli to fly a little bit around, saying “Booh” and maybe kick them into the pool. Like John Connor in Terminator 2, who insists not to kill everyone who tries to stop them. What put an end to his suffering is to leave Blackeberg with Eli regardless of killing the bullies or not. They don't matter much.
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by lombano » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:06 pm

Klesk wrote: In the novel they had to bring Conny into the hospital. That is not the absolute minimum. This is too much and the adults should intervene at this point to defuse the conflict between the bullies and Oscar. It is the victory through violence and this exhilarates him.
In the novel, there were no plastic sticks around Oskar could've used. It was basically a tree branch or nothing. Likewise, I don't see how he could've used it less while using it at all other than by hitting once. The absolute minimum is, of course, to do nothing, which is what the adults would've perhaps have wanted him to do. Book Oskar even offers his sock to stop the bleeding.
Klesk wrote:No, he doesn't run to his brother. His brother offers him to help, like Eli offers to help Oscar.
In the film, he makes no attempt whatsoever at dealing with it on his own or just with his gang. He's incapable of action even 3:1 against someone who will actually defend himself.
Klesk wrote: I don't think either it would work with most bullies.
In my experience, it has worked, though not necessarily literally hitting back physically. It worked in grade school and it's worked in the workplace.
Klesk wrote:But I think it would be enough for Eli to fly a little bit around, saying “Booh” and maybe kick them into the pool.
Yes, but if it doesn't work, and Oskar doesn't go with Eli, he's toast and why exactly would Eli take that risk? Deterrence has already failed, and ripping their heads off is a pretty effective way to neutralize the threat for good.
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metoo
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by metoo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:24 am

In the novel, Jonny & Micke chose to walk instead of skating. This made Oskar - correctly- conclude that they were planning to do something to him. Thus he armed himself with a heavy branch, prepared it by removing twigs.

Within few minutes Oskar's assumption showed to be true. He was taken by surprise, and dragged onto the ice. Was to have a bath, the bullies said. Oskar managed to wriggle out of Micke's' grip, and then swung the branch towards Jonny's legs. Jonny wasn't happy, and threatened to push Oskar into the water. Oskar swung the branch towards Jonny, aiming for the shoulder. But Jonny ducked, and took the impact on his ear.

I's say that Oskar did use a minimum of violence. He tried hitting Jonny somewhere it would hurt, badly, but otherwise not be dangerous. The outcome wasn't intended.

After hitting Jonny, Oskar's first reaction was remorse. Then the idea of finishing off Johnny briefly flashed through his mind. But ultimately Oskar tried to aid Jonny, and finally ran ashore to get help. This was actually quite brave, considering that he just had beaten a classmate incapable of walking.

Oskar's actions here shows his true personality. He would never have become a mass murderer, those were just fantasies. That is, he wouldn't if he hadn't chosen Eli over his life in Blackeberg. I think Oskar had to cope with this conflict the rest of his days (or nights).
Last edited by metoo on Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by sauvin » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:18 am

metoo wrote:In the novel, Jonny & Micke chose to walk instead of skating. This made Oskar - correctly- conclude that they were planning to do something to him. Thus he armed himself with a heavy branch, prepared it by removing twigs.

Within few minutes Oskar's assumption showed to be true. He was taken by surprise, and dragged onto the ice. Was to have a bath, the bullies said. Oskar managed to wriggle out of Micke's' grip, and the swung the branch towards Jonny's legs. Jonny wasn't happy, and threatened to push Oskar into the water. Oskar swung the branch towards Jonny, aiming for the shoulder. But Jonny ducked, and took the impact on his ear.

I's say that Oskar did use a minimum of violence. He tried hitting Jonny somewhere it would hurt, badly, but otherwise not be dangerous. The outcome wasn't intended.

After hitting Jonny, Oskar's first reaction was remorse. Then the idea of finishing off Johnny briefly flashed through his mind. But ultimately Oskar tried to aid Jonny, and finally ran ashore to get help. This was actually quite brave, considering that he just had beaten a classmate incapable of walking.

Oskar's actions here shows his true personality. He would never have become a mass murderer, those were just fantasies. That is, he wouldn't if he hadn't chosen Eli over his life in Blackeberg. I think Oskar had to cope with this conflict the rest of his days (or nights).
And the movie gives absolutely no indication of any of this. Well, walking/skating, maybe, but that clue wasn't needed when Conny asked Oskar if he wanted a bath.

What the movie shows is three boys facing a fourth. Oskar gave warning (something an incipient serial- or mass-murderer might not do), but then he did Eli's "Ender Wiggins" thing, scrunching his face up with very clear effort to put everything he had into that swing.

Movie Oskar showed absolutely no remorse.
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by Klesk » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:51 pm

metoo wrote: Within few minutes Oskar's assumption showed to be true. He was taken by surprise, and dragged onto the ice. Was to have a bath, the bullies said. Oskar managed to wriggle out of Micke's' grip, and then swung the branch towards Jonny's legs. Jonny wasn't happy, and threatened to push Oskar into the water. Oskar swung the branch towards Jonny, aiming for the shoulder. But Jonny ducked, and took the impact on his ear.
To hit him on the shin with the branch is o.k. The shin as well as his hands or genitalia are very sensitive body parts in contrast to the shoulder. To hit the shoulder would not stop him and of course you take the risk to hit parts of the head instead which can causes serious injuries. Well, it was an accident, not intended and I think Oscar is not very skilled in these things.

Later in the book Oscar sets the classroom into fire together with some memorabilia form Jonny's and Jimmy's father which were stored in Jonny's desk. I guess for revenge reasons and it seems to be a kind of redirection activity since to hit back hard did not work at all and the bullies tried to throw him onto the subway tracks. This causes the pool scene. In the movie they merge the essence of both scenes into one to shorten the storyline and we see an Oscar who aimes with the stick at Jonny's head and shows no remorse afterwards.

Both Oscars are showing a problematic behavior which is not the absolute minimum for effective self-defense. That doesn't mean that they will become mass murderer, of course.

lombano wrote: In my experience, it has worked, though not necessarily literally hitting back physically. It worked in grade school and it's worked in the workplace.
But we are talking about hitting back hard physically and that is something you don't do at your workplace, I guess.
lombano wrote: Yes, but if it doesn't work, and Oskar doesn't go with Eli, he's toast and why exactly would Eli take that risk? Deterrence has already failed, and ripping their heads off is a pretty effective way to neutralize the threat for good.
The first thing Eli could do is to kick Jonny into the pool and Oscar would be save.
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by metoo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:38 pm

Klesk wrote:To hit the shoulder would not stop him ....
You think?
Oskar kände en stum stöt i händerna när käppens tunga ände träffade rakt över Jonnys öra. Han flög åt sidan som en bowlingkägla ...
Oskar felt a shock in his hands when the heavy end of the stick hit straight on Jonny's ear. He flew to the side like a bowling pin ...
Such a heavy blow would very likely had left Jonny's arm paralysed, for a while. It would thus indeed have stopped him, and given Oskar time to escape.
Klesk wrote:Both Oscars are showing a problematic behavior which is not the absolute minimum for effective self-defense.
Sure. The absolute minimum would be to stay at home, to refuse to go to school.
lombano wrote: Yes, but if it doesn't work, and Oskar doesn't go with Eli, he's toast and why exactly would Eli take that risk? Deterrence has already failed, and ripping their heads off is a pretty effective way to neutralize the threat for good.
Klesk wrote:The first thing Eli could do is to kick Jonny into the pool and Oscar would be save.
For now, yes. But, like Lombano said, the way Eli chose to do it saved Oskar from Jonny's bullying for ever, and plausibly from everyone else's as well.

I have played with this idea - maybe (novel) Eli actually did at first just incapacitate Jimmy, since pulling Oskar out of the water must have been his first priority after having removed the immediate threat. After having accomplished that, and made sure Oskar was alive and breathing, Eli might have come to the conclusion that Jonny had to be removed in order for Oskar to be safe in the future. So he effectuated that. In any case, Jimmy must have been Eli's first victim, so Jonny must have known what was coming to him before it happened.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by Klesk » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:49 pm

metoo wrote: You think?
Yes, hitting other body parts would be more effective and painful for Jonny and in addition Oskar would not risk to injure him seriously. Oh, I guess Jonny did this all the time with Oscar.
metoo wrote: Sure. The absolute minimum would be to stay at home, to refuse to go to school.
That is what Oscar finally did in the novel, despite the whole “hitting back” thing.
metoo wrote: For now, yes. But, like Lombano said, the way Eli chose to do it saved Oskar from Jonny's bullying for ever, and plausibly from everyone else's as well.
In my opinion the friendship with Eli saves him and that he left Blackeberg with her/him. He isn't alone anymore and together with this beloved one. That is the meaning of the quote: “I must be gone and live, or stay and die.” Therefore it doesn't matter whether the bullies are dead or he hit back hard because he will never see them again.
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by dongregg » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:35 pm

This whole conversation has put me to thinking about how the climax could have played out differently. Eli asks to be invited in. She tells Jimmy (or whatever his name is. Is it different in the book?) to release Oskar or pull him up so he can breathe. Jimmy sneers at this little slip of a "girl." She uses controlled force to slap Jimmy so he cartwheels into the pool. She tells Oskar that she can't stay around Blackeberg and protect him. Eli asks Oskar to choose between her and his family. Oskar agrees to flee with her because he wants to be with her and because he sees without a doubt that the bullying will go on, probably with grievous consequences. Oskar goes home as though nothing has happened. He packs a few clothes and his Rubik's cube, leaves a note for his mom that he is running away, and disappears into the night with his beloved.

The main effect would be this. There would be no hue and cry in the newspapers. The police would not be looking for Eli and Oskar. There would be no reason to connect the pool (non)incident with the spate of unexplained deaths. The general public would not be on high alert. Although child protective services would be interested, would Oskar just be a number in an underfunded and overwhelmed system, like in the US? There might not even be the 1982 Swedish equivalent of a milk carton picture of Oskar. The school deals with the issue (arson/or Ávila getting beat up) by meting out the usual severe punishment--Jimmy is banned from coming onto school grounds and the other boys get a stern talking to.

Another effect would be that forum members could leave off debating the probably indefensible and possibly unnecessary deaths of three young people.

However, JAL didn't write it that way. I will join the debate with my take on it. It is surely tragic that Eli murders the cunning, cruel, and increasingly violent bullies, but sometimes tragic events occur when untoward circumstances align. It is tragic that the poor bullies were just in the wrong place at the wrong time--three bullies (well, four), a victimized child, and his vampire girlfriend. If Eli had not showed up, only one child would have died rather than three. But who's counting.

The takeaway from my scenario? Jimmy comically cartwheeling into the pool after Eli slaps him upside the head. :lol:
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by metoo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:20 pm

metoo wrote: For now, yes. But, like Lombano said, the way Eli chose to do it saved Oskar from Jonny's bullying for ever, and plausibly from everyone else's as well.
Klesk wrote:In my opinion the friendship with Eli saves him and that he left Blackeberg with her/him. He isn't alone anymore and together with this beloved one. That is the meaning of the quote: “I must be gone and live, or stay and die.” Therefore it doesn't matter whether the bullies are dead or he hit back hard because he will never see them again.
But Eli couldn't have known that Oskar would leave with him when he beheaded J&J. Thus, Eli could very well have killed Jonny with the purpose of stopping all future bullying. Jimmy was perhaps killed because he was seriously threatening Oskar, but Jonny was completely insignificant.

To dongregg:
Oskar's escape would indeed have been easier without the carnage at the pool side. However, that wouldn't have been as satisfying to John Ajvide Lindqvist. Actually, he felt a little dissatisfied with the fact that Tomas, the worst bully, survived in the novel. Accordingly, he made some changes to the story such that he could properly kill Martin in the film. Sweet revenge! :twisted:
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by dongregg » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:30 pm

metoo wrote:To dongregg:
Oskar's escape would indeed have been easier without the carnage at the pool side. However, that wouldn't have been as satisfying to John Ajvide Lindqvist. Actually, he felt a little dissatisfied with the fact that Tomas, the worst bully, survived in the novel. Accordingly, he made some changes to the story such that he could properly kill Martin in the film. Sweet revenge! :twisted:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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