So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

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drakkar
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by drakkar » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:33 pm

sauvin wrote:What is horror?
A damn good question, and I guess the answers will differ wildly. I, for one, don't like horror, but do like LTROI, hence I don't relate much to the horror elements in a story, but more to other aspects which the horror can modify. Others will see it different.
It explains why it took so long before I got to know LTROI, I don't like horror and I certainly don't like vampires - so it took a lot of The Right People praising it to persuade me.
JAL has written a "plain" horror novel, "Tjärven". This is a story with horror for horrors sake (zombies coming up from the sea sucking the brains out of people trapped on a small island). And - I didn't like it much, even though I noticed JAL's extraordinary ability to portray people and to flesh out the characters life.
For the heart life is simple. It beats as long as it can.
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Jameron
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by Jameron » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:19 am

Klesk wrote:In my opinion it is quite different. Owen tries to defend himself with a knife, but shortly he realizes that the bullies are not much impressed by it. Quite the contrary they are amused by his clumsy attempt. Abby's advice to take a knife turns out to be a very bad idea, because Owen is not a killer. He is not able to use the knife. Instead the bullies take his knife and threaten to put his eyes out.
I didn't say that Owen was any good at knife fights. The important part, in support of my position, is that he at least tried (something that Oskar would never do outside his dreams and fantasies). This is a marked change from Owen at the beginning of the film, apparent character development, something that mainstream audiences look for as a sign of good storytelling. Unfortunately, character development for Owen is a bad thing because it reduces his need for Abby.
Klesk wrote:At this point he is in the same back-at-square-one Situation like Oscar. He is screaming and whining like at the beginning of the movie.
Yes, he is in the same situation as Oskar, but his character has changed since the beginning of the film (insofar as his reaction to the bullies is concerned), unlike Oskar's.
  • Initial bullying - Oskar just lets Conny flick his nose
  • Initial bullying - Owen defies Kenny by trying to run
  • Pool scene - Oskar stays in the water and just goes to Jimmy when told
  • Pool scene - Owen tries to defend himself by getting his knife and threatening Jimmy with it
We can see Oskar reverts back to a compliant punch bag once Eli leaves, Owen's resistance is greater at the end than the beginning despite Abby's absence.

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"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli’s eyes. And what he saw was … himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."

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Klesk
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by Klesk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:20 am

Jameron wrote: I didn't say that Owen was any good at knife fights. The important part, in support of my position, is that he at least tried (something that Oskar would never do outside his dreams and fantasies). This is a marked change from Owen at the beginning of the film, apparent character development, something that mainstream audiences look for as a sign of good storytelling. Unfortunately, character development for Owen is a bad thing because it reduces his need for Abby.
I understand your position, but Oscar knows that defending himself with a knife is only a dream or fantasy. (He throws the knife away after Eli had killed Lacke) Owen just realizes it as he stands in front of the bullies and they laugh at him. That is too late and bloody stupid. I don't know whether Kenny's brother had a knife before or not, but now he has one. The task is not to try something, but rather to try something that has a realistic chance to be a success. If Owen had thought about it before, he would have known that it is a really bad idea and it is not appropriate that Abby gives that advice.
A creature of the night, that carries the light in itself.

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lombano
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by lombano » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:30 pm

Jameron wrote:With Owen we see a boy who is fighting back, the screaming and weeping is part of his non acceptance of what the bullies are doing to him, it is part of him fighting back (although it is easy to scoff at this idea, resisting and reacting is a form of fighting back, even if it is ultimately ineffectual). Oskar, on the other hand, is not fighting back, he has already been broken. Oskar only fantasises about fighting back by stabbing the tree and imagining he is killing his tormentors.
I see it as essentially the other way around - Oskar is at least preserving a shred of dignity by not screaming or weeping. Owen is doing just about the worst thing he could do aside from begging. Not just in terms of being bad for his ego, but in terms of giving the bullies their fun, Owen's reaction to me seems abject surrender, whereas Oskar ism however, feebly, still resisting. In this context, Oskar's reaction at the pool shows that, without Eli, he gives up.
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by dongregg » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:19 pm

lombano wrote:
Jameron wrote:With Owen we see a boy who is fighting back, the screaming and weeping is part of his non acceptance of what the bullies are doing to him, it is part of him fighting back (although it is easy to scoff at this idea, resisting and reacting is a form of fighting back, even if it is ultimately ineffectual). Oskar, on the other hand, is not fighting back, he has already been broken. Oskar only fantasises about fighting back by stabbing the tree and imagining he is killing his tormentors.
I see it as essentially the other way around - Oskar is at least preserving a shred of dignity by not screaming or weeping. Owen is doing just about the worst thing he could do aside from begging. Not just in terms of being bad for his ego, but in terms of giving the bullies their fun, Owen's reaction to me seems abject surrender, whereas Oskar ism however, feebly, still resisting. In this context, Oskar's reaction at the pool shows that, without Eli, he gives up.
I see too much being read into Oskar's behavior at the pool in LTROI (film). The bullies had planned it out so carefully that Oskar had few options. They had tricked the teacher into leaving the pool area. They had run off all of the other kids. They had Oskar cornered in the pool. Four against one. He had survived other attacks in the past. He could only hope that the bullies wouldn't take the contest too far. Or that Mr. Ávila would return. Or something. Oskar's options were pretty limited. If he had not come to Jimmy, Jimmy and the others would have come for him...and they would have been wet and very angry as well as mean. From this, I can't read into the scene that Oskar had become passive or that he had reverted to old behavior. I only see that he was screwed and trying to make the best of it. Also, the outcomes were supposed to be get nicked or lose and eye, not get drowned. He didn't necessarily have time to consider the third option, that Jimmy was a psychopath who had every intention of murdering him.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by lombano » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:01 am

Oskar would've won precious time by going to the center of the pool.
varamiglite wrote: The bullies...

I thought Kenny was better at being someone I would've been afraid of at twelve years old. I'm sorry but Conny never would've scared me for a second, and I'm not saying that because I was a bada** in school, I wasn't. The other two were just like the LTROI bullies... just tag-alongs trying to be cool. Kenny had more of a reason to be a bully since his brother picked on him in that scene after the ice pond. Kenny was submissive to his brother's bullying so he wanted others to submit to him. He even went as far as to use his brother's lines. Kenny was the better bully. Conny would have been better picking on fourth graders.
You can see that Jimmy also picks on Conny. But I found the LMI bullies very much to be cardboard cutouts - in LTROI, you know Conny is picked on himself, is a sadist but not a full-blown psycho like his brother, and is part of that outfit because he can run it; Martin is a also a sadist and doesn't seem to like Conny, but is there probably because it allows him to be a sadist and it's easier to be on Conny and Jimmy's side than not; Andreas is no sadist and is probably there because otherwise he's be in Oskar's position. With the LMI bullies, we get no depth.
Klesk wrote:Eli is the incarnation of Oscars anger and violence, she represents the beauty/erotic of violence but fruitless violence e.g genderless, sexless, something disturbing, attractive and dangerous within. And Abby? She appears not threatening enough. She is pretty and shy. She does not impress me.
I don't think there's anything attractive about the violence in LTROI - both Oskar and Eli accept violence can be necessary, but they don't seem to relish it. Eli certainly doesn't. Abby doesn't seem very threatening, true, and I agree with what yous ay about her doing a little hop instead of Eli's big jump from the jungle gym. Shy, yes, possibly, but "pretty" is not the word I'd use for her - I don't mean that she's ugly, but that "pretty" hints at a certain daintiness which Abby lacks.
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by Klesk » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:31 pm

lombano wrote: I don't think there's anything attractive about the violence in LTROI - both Oskar and Eli accept violence can be necessary, but they don't seem to relish it.
That is not what you see in Oscars face after he hit back. Necessary? Maybe, but there is more than that. It is a two-edged sword. Somewhat attractive, exciting and wrong. It is nothing what really helps Oscar to solve his problems. On the contrary the situation escalates and becomes worse.
lombano wrote: Eli certainly doesn't.
At the end Eli is very brutal, more than it is necessary. She does not just kill them, she literally slaughters them. In fact, even to kill the bullies is not necessary. Jocke and Lacke are getting a “smarter” death, because it is not revenge what drives her.
lombano wrote: Abby doesn't seem very threatening, true, and I agree with what you say about her doing a little hop instead of Eli's big jump from the jungle gym. Shy, yes, possibly, but "pretty" is not the word I'd use for her - I don't mean that she's ugly, but that "pretty" hints at a certain daintiness which Abby lacks.
I mean “pretty” in the sense of being boring or ordinary.
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Jameron
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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by Jameron » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:22 pm

lombano wrote:...in LTROI, you know Conny is picked on himself.
How do we know this? I can't think of anything that tells us Conny is picked on. Are you thinking of when his brother grabs him from behind when he comes to borrow Conny's keys? For me that is just familial horseplay, they part on mutually friendly terms.

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"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli’s eyes. And what he saw was … himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."

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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by metoo » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:34 pm

Jameron wrote:I can't think of anything that tells us Conny is picked on. Are you thinking of when his brother grabs him from behind when he comes to borrow Conny's keys? For me that is just familial horseplay, they part on mutually friendly terms.
I agree.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: So I Finally Got to Watch LMI too ;)

Post by sauvin » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:08 pm

I think I agree with dongregg in seeing too much being made of Oskar or Owen's behaviour at the pool scene - this coming from the guy who used to dissect every facial expression and musical cue.

Lombano states that Oskar could have "won precious time" by moving to the centre of the pool. In his place, I might have done this, but some of this would also go through my mind: (1) we don't know what Oskar's swimming skills are like, (2) assuming the bullies weren't willing to get wet, there's no guarantee he could tread water long enough for them to get bored and wander away, (3) he would himself have to wander away eventually against the fear the bullies hadn't wandered away very far, (4) there's nothing to say one or more of the bullies wouldn't just jump out of their clothes and into the pool after him, (5) he had no way of knowing Jimmy would escalate matters far beyond what he'd already experienced with the other bullies at other times, (6) the only real reason for buying "precious time" would be to stave the confrontation off long enough for rescue to arrive, but we don't have any indication this is going to happen, and don't have any indication that Oskar knows or suspects it.

We could say that Owen at least tried to fight back. He DID run off to his locker to retrieve his knife, didn't he? That was before it became clear he was trapped. When the pool scene crisis became clear in Oskar's case, it was already too late to do anything.

Owen tried to fight back, but realised too late that his weapon was really only useful for cleaning fingernails or scraping gunk off the bottoms of his boots. It was woefully inadequate in practical terms against several opponents, most of whom outmassed and out-muscled him by an appreciable fraction of an order of magnitude, and it was worse than useless in psychological terms. Nobody fears a pocket knife.

What's shown in LMI is as real a depiction of school bullying (grade school through high school) as any I can remember ever seeing on the big screen. It does get worse, if my experience from forty or fifty years ago is any indicator, but from the perspective of the victim, what's shown in LMI is abundantly traumatising enough - and far more common than we'd like to admit.

Yes, Owen went into the pool screaming and crying like a terrified little girl, but I (for one) can't fault this reaction. Like me in such circumstances, it's more than possible his mind went on temporary vacation; unlike Oskar's bullies, Owen's are apt to inflict physical injury; Owen had no idea what to expect, except that it'll likely be very unpleasant. It was already "uncomfortable", being dragged essentially naked down concrete or ceramic tile floors.

There's nothing to say that Oskar's mind hadn't also taken temporary leave. Where Owen broke down, Oskar shut down. His mind went blank; he froze. Who can say for sure?

Neither reaction - taken by itself - is necessarily indicative of (lack of) "strength of character", "intestinal fortitude", "moral fibre" or any of the other qualities or virtues we apply or ascribe to people when operating under this kind of duress. Oskar apparently "had it", and Owen "didn't", because Owen's reaction was noisier? This kind of assessment is made in a vacuum when any man, woman or child is overpowered and menaced in such a manner.
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