Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" Abby?

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gattoparde59
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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by gattoparde59 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:42 am

cmfireflies wrote:One thing I've been thinking of, did Reeve set up Abby to be the "bad guy" by starting the film at Thomas's death? A sort of message to the audience to watch out for Abby before we even see her. Since the audience is treated to what happens to the object of Abby's affections, are we primed to see her as evil, whereas we were introduced to Eli at the same time as Oskar was, so we get to see Eli as Oskar saw her?
I agree that this was Reeves' intention. As Lee Kyle says elsewhere, "the cycle theory is relentlessly pushed" and from this perspective the opening of Let Me In makes sense. Reeves was also looking for a shaky cam hook for his movie, but this makes sense in terms of the overall theme. In a way Reeves was beginning his movie where the Swedish movie ended.

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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by DavidZahir » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:59 pm

I loved Abby, the sad little girl with a demon inside, so obviously longing to hold to the child, yet having to live with all she's seen and done.
O let my name be in the Book of Love. If it be there I care not
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But let My name be in the Book of Love!
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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by IDreamtIWasABee » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:19 pm

If you liked Moretz, you'll love Abby. No different than Lina.

Abby is a "rescuer." She's not like Eli, who himself/herself needs to be "rescued." She's drawn to boys like Owen and Thomas because they need someone to heal them, and she actually has the power (and the empathy) needed to do this. But like most healers, things start to fall apart after she's done this. She treats her guys badly after they've grown up, but no worse than normal people who need to end a relationship but just can't let go. The whole caretaker "cycle" is just a metaphor for this.

It's a different story than LTROI, though. I can see why so many fans of that film can't get into it.
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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by cmfireflies » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:20 am

Hey Bee how've you been?

I actually see Eli as more of the rescuer and Abby as the rescuee because of the cycle in LMI. I don't think Abby heals Owen because I don't think that LMI emphasized that Owen was broken. He's more of a regular kid with a bully problem than Oskar is. I'm not saying that Oskar is broken, just that he needed a "healer" more than Owen. What Owen needed were attentive parents and kids to stop bullying him. I think the thing that pushed it over the edge as to Owen's problems being easier to fix than Oskar's is the inclusion of the drunk mom. All these problems are external, meaning that Owen really doesn't need to change. (Ok, he needs to stand up for himself, but that's it.- Owen wants a normal life, Oskar I think, wants something else.)I just see Oskar as someone who will flourish with Eli and Owen as someone who will be stifled with Abby.

Thing is, I do like Mortez. She's very talented, but seems to be stuck in not so successful movies. In fact, I think Mortez gave a much more nuanced performance than what Reeves envisioned for the role. I got the feeling that Reeves was always more interested in Thomas and Owen than what made Abby tick, so for her to be very conflicted and hurt in some scenes (while a great accomplishment for such a young actor) soured the story which I think would have worked better had Mortez allowed Abby to be a purely manipulative villain and the "climax" of the movie could be in the vein of The Usual Suspects where the power of the film comes from the audience realizing that hey the bad guy just won. Instead, the ambiguity of the character detracts from the other aspects of the film, which is quite morally black and white, (although I don't think Reeves intended it that way.)
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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by danielma » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:41 am

Did anyone (sauvin? Jameron?) "love" Abby, as opposed to merely pity her?
I think I pitied her, I couldn't love her. Largely because I'm still not sure whether its a Child Hiding the Face of a Monster or if its a Monster hiding behind the facade of a Child.

I tend to agree with you CM, that I think she is burning her hand again in this false sense of hope that things could be different this time even though she most likely knows it won't be. I think the back story being implicitly told makes it all that much harder to love her when you can implicitly see this whole relationship potentially coming full circle. I think its also hard to love her when its never quite clear that Owen loves her. I still believe that Owen is conflicted come the end of the film, I get the sense that he's leaving for something that he thinks is potentially better but there is still apart of him that is in doubt about it. With Oskar, I think its 100% pure embracement of what it is he has chosen, I think that makes it a little easier to love Eli in some regard. If Oskar can love her then maybe we can too.

With Owen, I think the internal conflict of whether he has embraced her or not is a big part of the struggle in why I don't know whether to love her. If the kid going with her looks in conflict, then what does that really say?

I pitied them both at best, but I don't know if I can say that I "loved" Abby.
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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by lombano » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:11 pm

cmfireflies wrote: I actually see Eli as more of the rescuer and Abby as the rescuee because of the cycle in LMI. I don't think Abby heals Owen because I don't think that LMI emphasized that Owen was broken. He's more of a regular kid with a bully problem than Oskar is. I'm not saying that Oskar is broken, just that he needed a "healer" more than Owen. What Owen needed were attentive parents and kids to stop bullying him. I think the thing that pushed it over the edge as to Owen's problems being easier to fix than Oskar's is the inclusion of the drunk mom. All these problems are external, meaning that Owen really doesn't need to change. (Ok, he needs to stand up for himself, but that's it.- Owen wants a normal life, Oskar I think, wants something else.)I just see Oskar as someone who will flourish with Eli and Owen as someone who will be stifled with Abby.
I disagree, I think all four kids need to be rescued, but whereas Eli and Oskar temporarily, maybe just momentarily, rescue one another, even if it is a very desperate rescue, whereas Abby is beyond rescue (as in a fanvid I made, she "can't afford to care") and Owen is doomed by the "rescue"* (despite his apparently cheerful personality, Reeves's version is by far the darkest of all three incarnations of the story). I think Owen was more fragile than Oskar and thus in greater need of rescue.

*Owen to me seemed to regret being saved by Abby - as if at least part of him thought it would've been better to drown. Oskar, on the other hand, is overjoyed.
cmfireflies wrote:Thing is, I do like Mortez. She's very talented, but seems to be stuck in not so successful movies. In fact, I think Mortez gave a much more nuanced performance than what Reeves envisioned for the role. I got the feeling that Reeves was always more interested in Thomas and Owen than what made Abby tick, so for her to be very conflicted and hurt in some scenes (while a great accomplishment for such a young actor) soured the story which I think would have worked better had Mortez allowed Abby to be a purely manipulative villain and the "climax" of the movie could be in the vein of The Usual Suspects where the power of the film comes from the audience realizing that hey the bad guy just won. Instead, the ambiguity of the character detracts from the other aspects of the film, which is quite morally black and white, (although I don't think Reeves intended it that way.)
I think it would've been very uninteresting if Abby had been a pure, wholly manipulative, monster - at best a "don't talk to strangers" cautionary tale.
IDreamtIWasABee wrote: If you liked Moretz, you'll love Abby. No different than Lina.
Moretz can certainly act (though I think Lina's was the better performance), in any case I think she was well-cast for what Reeves appears to have wanted. Alfredson was going for a hint of "ancient" and a "dark angel" look fit his film perfectly. Reeves was going for a more adolescent character ("pain of growing up") and, given the greater violence and so forth of his film, probably one that exuded toughness more, and CGM, who is good-loking but has coarse facial features, has face well-suited to play tough characters.
IDreamtIWasABee wrote: Abby is a "rescuer." She's not like Eli, who himself/herself needs to be "rescued." She's drawn to boys like Owen and Thomas because they need someone to heal them, and she actually has the power (and the empathy) needed to do this. But like most healers, things start to fall apart after she's done this. She treats her guys badly after they've grown up, but no worse than normal people who need to end a relationship but just can't let go. The whole caretaker "cycle" is just a metaphor for this.
I'd not thought of it precisely this way - yes, there's an element of it I think, taken to the extreme - she saves Thomas, who then literally devotes his life to her and literally does everything humanly possible for her, and then she literally sucks the life out of him.
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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by jetboy » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:43 am

IDreamtIWasABee wrote:If you liked Moretz, you'll love Abby. No different than Lina.

Abby is a "rescuer." She's not like Eli, who himself/herself needs to be "rescued." She's drawn to boys like Owen and Thomas because they need someone to heal them, and she actually has the power (and the empathy) needed to do this. But like most healers, things start to fall apart after she's done this. She treats her guys badly after they've grown up, but no worse than normal people who need to end a relationship but just can't let go. The whole caretaker "cycle" is just a metaphor for this.

It's a different story than LTROI, though. I can see why so many fans of that film can't get into it.
I disagree with this notion. Sure Eli needs rescuing but is Oskar going to do it? Is a normal, but good kid able to heal the wounds or heart hardening of at least a couple of centuries of killing other people? If he is its not what Oskar can give Eli, its what Oskar can achieve BECAUSE of Eli. Of course Eli is attracted to Oskar but her level of maturity is much higher IMO and her love is very selfless.

Abbey's love, and I do believe her feelings for Owen are true, is more selfish. In a way Abbey and Owen are on the same level maturity wise.

I wouldnt be surprised if Eli's goal was for Oskar to grow up with a newfound healthy and happy state of mind without Eli. I really see them both rescued with that scenario. Eli reminds me of Frodo Baggins, she finally did her good but she's basically damaged goods, happy for Oskar to enjoy the life she was robbed of.

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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by Alice?Maybe » Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:29 am

I came to love Abby. In LMI we have no indication how long ago Abby was violated and infected. All we know is that she has been 12 a very long time, at least 43 years (the paramedic radios in saying they are bringing in a 55 year old, 10 years Hakan's senior and assuming he was Abby's age in the photo). Was she violated in the 1950s - 60s around the time the photo was taken? So maybe hooking up with Thomas was part of a learned survival strategy. We have to remember she is 12, even if she has been 12 for 300 years, she is 12. Twelve year olds do not process like adults so I cannot judge her for her actions. She is an abused child who is forever a child, of sorts. She never matures into adulthood where she would become responsible for dealing with the trauma of the past and develop acceptable survival strategies. Even so, I wasn't particularly fond of her "using" Thomas, although she did display a little affection for him, or was playing to what she knew he would like (she does have a thing for doing what people want if they show disappointment, candy, going steady. At first I am afraid for Owen, that she is simply exercising her normal survival strategy and begins grooming Owen. This may well have been her initial intention. However, I come to believe that she comes to genuinely car for Owen, to love him. Part of this is due to me wanting this to be the case, the bigger reason is based on Abby's behaviour. When Owen is in her house and looks at the photo strip and maybe starts to think that she has set sights on him to be the next Thomas and wants to leave. She lets him and as he passes her on the way out the door, Abby says, resignedly, remorsefully, "I told you we couldn't be friends." When Owen leaves she seems to experience real pain, grief, loss, more so than at the death of Thomas. I see it in the way she hugs him after dispatching the cop. I see it in her rescue of him from the pool. She had left town, yet was there for him. She could've just as easily found another lonely, bullied little boy anywhere, they are ubiquitous, but she didn't she comes back to save Owen. She and learned to love. Part of the lesson is that Owen is not like others, he isn't interested in getting in her drawers. In the basement she asks Owen what he wants to do. To me she is asking if he wants to make-out or whatever, if that's what her had in mind as if that's what she expected. Yet, Owen sees something in Abby other than her physical beauty. Owen is different.
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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by Alice?Maybe » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:47 am

I've considered this a bit more. Watched both movies twice more since replying. Haven't re-read the book, but it wasn't that long ago I read it twice, started re-reading immediately after the first.

When I saw LMI, before ever hearing about LTROI book or movie. Based on what was shown I made some assumptions about Abby's history. I watched LTROI and read the book to check out these assumptions. None of what JAL tells us about Eli fell outside the assumptions I had made, including the sexual assault when Elias was turned. Now, my assumptions, based solely on LMI, did have the assault and turning as separate events, but not distanced by time. So, in my often not so humble opinion, Abby and Eli are the same character. Abby is Eli.
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Re: Do you think that Reeve denied us the chance to "love" A

Post by cmfireflies » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:20 am

When I saw LMI, before ever hearing about LTROI book or movie. Based on what was shown I made some assumptions about Abby's history. I watched LTROI and read the book to check out these assumptions. None of what JAL tells us about Eli fell outside the assumptions I had made, including the sexual assault when Elias was turned. Now, my assumptions, based solely on LMI, did have the assault and turning as separate events, but not distanced by time. So, in my often not so humble opinion, Abby and Eli are the same character. Abby is Eli.
Thanks for digging up this old topic. It would make sense that Abby and Eli share the same general background, given that Reeves adopted LtROI.

Personally, I don't like Abby as a child as all. I prefer her as a schemer and manipulator. I guess I don't like Abby because to me she shows one of the unhappy endings in store for Oskar and Eli: that they would be pulled apart by the passage of time. But thanks for your input on why you think Abby and Owen will turn out differently, even though I don't agree. To me, it just seems like she didn't care about Thomas's death because to her, he died years ago when he grew up and she didn't. That she initially loves all her companions as strongly as she does Owen, but that she can't sustain that love through the years. I think the only thing different for Owen is that he's new and he's twelve, and both those things will change. But that's just me.
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