Could the casting have been switched?

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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by sauvin » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:48 pm

gattoparde59 wrote:Part of this would be easy if you take things back to the novel. There you already have a boy vampire even though he does not seem to give a hoot about his gender.
In the novel what we have is a very young person who had at one time been a boy but has since been totally neutered. I would personally believe he'd be more concerned with his lost humanity than his lost gender, all the more so since what'd been removed would have provided the bulk of the hormonal changes thrusting him into a masculine adulthood. I suspect he doesn't give a hoot about his gender because he has nothing to give a hoot WITH.

I think we can take it as general agreement that LMI isn't a closely faithful remake. A bit more troublesome is the assertion that the LTROI movie itself is somewhat less than completely faithful because a great many of us didn't see an androgynous being in eLina, we saw a girl. I'll bet the significance of the "reveal" shot eluded most one-time casual viewers, and there've been quite a few on this very board to admit they didn't understand it until they'd come to visit here.

In LMI, there's absolutely nothing to hint that Abby isn't exactly what she appears to be: a girl eternally stuck with living a few minutes past menarche. This carries subtle subtext with her budding relationship with Owen that isn't present in the novel. Among other things, Owen isn't apparently obliged to struggle with the idea of homosexuality because his version of Eli never steps out of the bathroom, drops his towel and says "Just so you know." What we do have is Owen peeking in on Abby's showering and registering no unusual reaction at all, very strongly implying that what he sees is exactly what he expects to see (and implying he knows what to expect).
gattoparde59 wrote:Hӓken could be brought over from the novel pretty much intact save the whole "resurrection" part and obviously the explicit scenes. Enough to have Hӓken confessing his love for Owen and there is creepy enough there for several movies.
Creep, yes, but not necessarily horror. To the preponderance of an American audience, a potentially carnal relationship between a middle aged man and a preteen boy is simply untenable. Here is the very large risk of overwhelming the delicate tendrils developing between a vampire Owen and a distressed human Abby by shoving the whole movie too far into the arena of American sexual politics. LMI is already pretty pressured; most folks express marked discomfort at the idea that twelve year olds could be inclined to romance.
gattoparde59 wrote:As for making the vampire's friend a female, there are no end of things that might traumatize a young girl. She could be living with her father and the mother could be the big disappointment in her life.
I don't think this alone would do it.

It's easier to think of a boy turning his back on society because boys tend to be a bit more rebellious, independent and prone to risky activity than girls to begin with. Pile on top of this the kinds of stressors seen with either movie Oskar or Owen, and add the choice between continuing to endure such an existence now heavily overcast by the aftermath of a set of murders in his presence, I'd actually claim that either boy's decision to run off with his girlfriend is a no-brainer. It helps that the boys can be very confident that their girlfriends can survive on their own; they'll be taken care of.

We know what drove Hakan into the bargain in the novel, but we don't actually "know" what drove him into it in the movie. We have fears, yes, and suspicions, but there have been reports of people not picking up on the paedophilic implication. With what's given in the movie, the man could just be a half-rotted fruit salad.

We also don't know what drove Thomas into the bargain with Abby, but here, the implication is a lot stronger. Whether Abby intended it or not, Thomas was seduced into it. This can't be the only impetus; boys between the ages of (say) eleven and sixteen can fall in and out of love two or three times a week. The interaction between Abby and Owen itself suggests what general kind of early history Abby and Thomas might have had.

With Thomas' and Abby's apparent decades-long relationship comes fundamental transgression in the implication of a man having continued to be intimate with a child long after he has himself ceased to be a child. While it's superficially unacceptable to American sexual sensibilities (this is actually probably true of the Anglosphere in its entirety), it's also a bit more readily understood: a boy and a girl met, committed themselves to each other, and this commitment survived.

Just as I claim that human Abby needs to be living with her father in this re-imagining that wants to stay as close qualitatively as possible to LMI (and not necessarily to either novel or movie LTROI), Owen's isolation needs to be made more complete by having a female companion. A man might be able to tell Owen about why present-day boys are fascinated by this comic book hero or that particular kind of toy - might, in other words, be able to infiltrate a boy more successfully into a present-day boy's culture. A woman won't necessarily be able to explain locker room humour, for example, and might be completely nonplussed at a boy's or man's fascination with sports or weapons. It'd make it that much harder for him to blend in socially.

Girls don't tend to be so openly rebellious. They might flout convention by dressing in bizarre ways or listening to - I guess you could call it "music" - but they still tend to be caregivers and nurturers at their core. A girl cresting puberty tends to be already more a woman than a boy cresting puberty a man, and the girl will have much more need to feel like she belongs and isn't (seen as) being too transverse in any way to the mainstream society into which she knows subconsciously she's one day going to have to try to integrate herself.

To further frustrate matters, it seems girls are far more emotionally resilient than boys.
They can survive greater adversity because they're less likely to deny it, less likely to "bottle it up". There's a statistic floating around somewhere that boys attempting suicide are four times more likely to be "successful" than girls because they tend to use more physically traumatic means; this may be true, but I have a suspicion that girls' attempts might tend to be less "committed" precisely because of that resilience.

This means there are more influences working against Abby's decision to run off with vampire Owen; it isn't such a "no-brainer". We can accept that a preteen Thomas did so, boys will be boys, yadda yadda, and so his early history with vampire Abby is a fairly easy exercise in "filling in your own blanks". Vampire Owen's female companion's early history with him will probably need quite a bit more hinting (but not necessarily outright explanation), as would human Abby's eloping with vampire Owen. My heart is telling me it could be done, and plausibly without Owen's longtime companion being an overt whack job, but I'm in the same fix Lombano is in: my heart isn't telling me how it could be done. I'm an old man; what do I know about being a girl!?

I'm toying with the idea of letting human Abby be like me: congenitally hearing impaired. Few things could be more isolating, and I would imagine it's much more devastating to a girl than to a boy. I understand that children with such impairments today are accommodated with special programs to address the issues of socialisation, but such attention was not generally available to such children in the '80's. Here's a girl who doesn't know the words to popular music, rarely overhears the other girls talking about who's who and who isn't, and so on. She's most definitely not part of the scene, and is frequently mocked and upbraided for her ignorance and her "aloofness". Here is a girl who very easily could run away from home and turn her back on the society of which she'd never been truly a part, and away from which she'd frequently been pushed in millions of subtle ways.

And here's a girl who very well could express the kind of loyalty to a monster that Thomas had for Abby, so long as she believes he loves her.
gattoparde59 wrote:Flora in Handling the Undead, or especially Teresa in Little Star could serve as models for the character. Teresa would of course have to more sympathetic that what we get in Little Star. She could be a weird, incipient Goth Girl with virtually no friends.
I've not read Little Star, and so can't comment on Teresa. I have read Handling the Undead, but am ashamed to admit I don't remember any of it. It was a great read, and I don't regret one penny of the money I plunked down for the hardcover, but I just don't remember it :(
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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by gattoparde59 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:09 am

sauvin wrote:Creep, yes, but not necessarily horror. To the preponderance of an American audience, a potentially carnal relationship between a middle aged man and a preteen boy is simply untenable. Here is the very large risk of overwhelming the delicate tendrils developing between a vampire Owen and a distressed human Abby by shoving the whole movie too far into the arena of American sexual politics. LMI is already pretty pressured; most folks express marked discomfort at the idea that twelve year olds could be inclined to romance.


All I can say is go watch American Television. Never mind specialized ghettos like HBO or Comedy Central. Watch American prime-time television. I have not made a careful study of it, but my impression is that no stone is left un-turned, sexually speaking.

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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by sauvin » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:03 am

gattoparde59 wrote:All I can say is go watch American Television. Never mind specialized ghettos like HBO or Comedy Central. Watch American prime-time television. I have not made a careful study of it, but my impression is that no stone is left un-turned, sexually speaking.
And you're claiming that most Americans would find something resonant in all these turned stones?
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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by PeteMork » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:16 am

In addition to the concerns voiced above, the minefield of American film viewers and critics is unpredictable at best, and career ending at worst. Just ask Dakota Fanning when her film "Hounddog," originally considered by some to be a somewhat mediocre, but well-acted (by Fanning) film, was attacked by religious zealots even before its release, and was consequently butchered and edited into oblivion. Probably because of this excessive censoring, It had a short, unsuccessful run before finally being released on DVD.

I am fairly certain that several of the scenarios offered above could easily suffer the same fate. Especially in an election year.
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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by lombano » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:25 pm

A problem with keeping the dialogue, just switching Abby and Owen, is that the earlier parts establish that Abby is, at best, not very assertive. This is hard to reconcile with her being the one who asks Owen out - I think something like 'Owen, does this mean we're going steady?' is more consistent. Owen could be scared of the whole emotional part, but not any possible physical aspect - maybe after Abby explains about it meaning them being bf and gf, she would be the one to say 'Owen, does this mean you want to... you know, do something special?' with Abby feeling perhaps both rejected ('nobody could want me') and relieved.
Another issue with simply switching things around is the issue of any fears of being discovered. It seems in Sweden it would be no big deal, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't usually go like that with American parents and they'd typically react very differently to finding a strange boy and their daughter in their daughter's bed to finding a strange girl and their son in their son's bed. The non-vampire would thus be in a different position regarding the possibility of being discovered - them being discovered by non-vampire Abby's father is a different kind of threat than being discovered by non-vampire Owen's mother. I think oit was on imdb that, when speculating about Eli being discovere din Oskar's bed, the Americans thought the reaction would be something like Yvonne would kick Eli out, scream at both of them, and once Oskar had been sent back to bed, sigh a big sigh of relief, while the Scandinavians thought she'd offer them an extra blanket and ask Eli if her parents knew where she was.
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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by sauvin » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:20 pm

lombano wrote:A problem with keeping the dialogue, just switching Abby and Owen, is that the earlier parts establish that Abby is, at best, not very assertive. This is hard to reconcile with her being the one who asks Owen out - I think something like 'Owen, does this mean we're going steady?' is more consistent. Owen could be scared of the whole emotional part, but not any possible physical aspect - maybe after Abby explains about it meaning them being bf and gf, she would be the one to say 'Owen, does this mean you want to... you know, do something special?' with Abby feeling perhaps both rejected ('nobody could want me') and relieved.
American girls can be incredibly brassy, even the mousiest of them, when playing the mating game, even in the earliest stages where twelve year olds are just role-playing to see how it's supposed to go. This has been true for as long as I can remember, although I'll cheerfully enough admit said memory in this area really only extends backwards into the late '60's. Hint: some of the best hookups happened in Sunday school.

However, you make a point, and with it, create some problems. Vampire Owen just ate his momma and flew into human Abby's bedroom looking for some solace of a decidedly child-like nature; as far as he's concerned up to this point, this is precisely what Abby is, and her being such allows him to rediscover what it is to be the child that he also is. Going steady, role-playing in games of make-believe monogamy and suchlike are the last thing on his mind. It's unlikely he'll mention anything even remotely suggestive of formalising a relationship he probably still considers an unusual and very pleasant interlude, doomed to end at a moment's notice.

Relationships might be the last thing on his mind, but not necessarily hers. Some way has to be found to reflect Owen's (and Oskar's) unusual show of assertion if the movie is to retain as much of the original LMI narrative chemistry as possible.

Owen's fear of doing "something special" when you go steady might not be of anything outwardly physical - but it might. Abby evinced, um, "concern" when the implication arose, and we seem fairly confident her experience would probably have left her more or less indifferent to the physical reality of it. One of the things to cross my Eli's mind when Oskar popped the question (an impression borne out by a similar scene in the novel) is that she may have feared she'd misunderstood the nature of their relationship, and that she'd missed some important clue that that kind of interest might be at play here. In Eli's case, there isn't a great deal of doubt she'd had to learn that relationships based on physical attraction can be shallow, exploitative and short. The bedroom scene in LTROI is what I'm calling a "make or break" deal; if Oskar had played his end of the exchange in any other way, it's distinctly possible Eli would have disappeared the very next night. This impression in Abby's case isn't nearly as strong, but it's still there.

While it's certainly tough to believe a boy would be skittish about a bit of smooching, let's try to bear in mind he's twelve, not sixteen, and even more at sea with normal human dynamics than the average twelve year old. If we contort the conversation to wrap around the concerns Lombano outlines, the gender thing I'm claiming already alters the movie's basic chemistry changes potentially quite a bit more because it risks casting vampire Owen into more of an aggressive ("conquering") light than is the apparent case with vampire Abby. Much thought is needed.

To complicate matters, once the subject (or suggestion) of relationships comes into play, I could very easily see a human Abby latching onto it with a death grip, mousiness notwithstanding.
lombano wrote:Another issue with simply switching things around is the issue of any fears of being discovered. It seems in Sweden it would be no big deal, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't usually go like that with American parents and they'd typically react very differently to finding a strange boy and their daughter in their daughter's bed to finding a strange girl and their son in their son's bed. The non-vampire would thus be in a different position regarding the possibility of being discovered - them being discovered by non-vampire Abby's father is a different kind of threat than being discovered by non-vampire Owen's mother. I think oit was on imdb that, when speculating about Eli being discovere din Oskar's bed, the Americans thought the reaction would be something like Yvonne would kick Eli out, scream at both of them, and once Oskar had been sent back to bed, sigh a big sigh of relief, while the Scandinavians thought she'd offer them an extra blanket and ask Eli if her parents knew where she was.
I don't recall that the fear of discovery was a factor in either movie. They took pains to be quiet, true enough.

On the subject of a girl's father discovering a "tryst" being worse than a boy's mother discovering it, an errant thought is that human Owen's mother was a religious nut. How actually religious she might be is a point we could argue about until the stars fall out of the sky, but one of the hallmarks of American religious mania is a fear of sex. I could very easily see human Owen's mother being highly incensed, trying to throw Abby on the spot and thrashing Owen for being evil. The fear doesn't even have to have a "religious" foundation: "Do you have any idea (whack!) of just how wrong it is, what you're doing? (whack!) Do you have any idea (whack!) what could happen to you, how it could ruin (whack!)your life? (whack!) Do you know what it could do to hers!? (whack!) You keep your filthy paws to yourself, young man (whack!) if you know what's good for you, (whack!) and stay away from the girls! (whack!)"
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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by gattoparde59 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:55 pm

sauvin wrote:American girls can be incredibly brassy, even the mousiest of them, when playing the mating game, even in the earliest stages where twelve year olds are just role-playing to see how it's supposed to go.
Many words could be used to described Abby and Owen, but "brassy" ain't one of them. I don't see a problem with the girl asking the boy to "go steady" here. I always thought the confusion and balking over this subject was cute, despite it being a subtle reference to darker matters concerning our child vampire.

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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by lombano » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:31 pm

sauvin wrote:
lombano wrote:Another issue with simply switching things around is the issue of any fears of being discovered. It seems in Sweden it would be no big deal, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't usually go like that with American parents and they'd typically react very differently to finding a strange boy and their daughter in their daughter's bed to finding a strange girl and their son in their son's bed. The non-vampire would thus be in a different position regarding the possibility of being discovered - them being discovered by non-vampire Abby's father is a different kind of threat than being discovered by non-vampire Owen's mother. I think oit was on imdb that, when speculating about Eli being discovere din Oskar's bed, the Americans thought the reaction would be something like Yvonne would kick Eli out, scream at both of them, and once Oskar had been sent back to bed, sigh a big sigh of relief, while the Scandinavians thought she'd offer them an extra blanket and ask Eli if her parents knew where she was.
I don't recall that the fear of discovery was a factor in either movie. They took pains to be quiet, true enough.
It was never brought up explicitly, but being quiet implies a wish not to be discovered, which is brought up explicitly in the novel.
On the subject of a girl's father discovering a "tryst" being worse than a boy's mother discovering it, an errant thought is that human Owen's mother was a religious nut. How actually religious she might be is a point we could argue about until the stars fall out of the sky, but one of the hallmarks of American religious mania is a fear of sex. I could very easily see human Owen's mother being highly incensed, trying to throw Abby on the spot and thrashing Owen for being evil. The fear doesn't even have to have a "religious" foundation: "Do you have any idea (whack!) of just how wrong it is, what you're doing? (whack!) Do you have any idea (whack!) what could happen to you, how it could ruin (whack!)your life? (whack!) Do you know what it could do to hers!? (whack!) You keep your filthy paws to yourself, young man (whack!) if you know what's good for you, (whack!) and stay away from the girls! (whack!)"
Now imagine Abby's father, a religious nut, finding some unknown boy has climbed into bed with his daughter. My gut feeling, for what it's worth, is his reaction would be more extreme than Owen's mother's.
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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by sauvin » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:15 pm

Lombano makes a powerful point again, and it's a point that doesn't really bear driving home. These are American kids, with American parents, and they don't want to risk being caught, end of story. As I remember from my own preteen years (such as I remember them), it's "wrong" to have a member of the opposite gender naked in bed you when you're only twelve, $deity and $parent alone might know why for sure, and so their meeting in this manner has to be kept secret.

Gattoparde59, I also don't have a problem with Abby showing the initiative. Here's an abandoned, abused and neglected little girl who's suddenly had heaven in a handbasket dropped into her lap, and I really could very easily see her latching into it with a death grip. Part of Lombano's objection might be cultural; maybe girls in Spanish-speaking countries are normally expected to be more passive in such matters. I can testify from experience that even really shy girls in the US can be rather forward, even while tending to be indirect.

Part of the existing bedroom scene's power in the LTROI movie is in its compactness. It was very direct and focused. There was no unnecessary dialog and no "dead time" where there's really nothing to see or hear that that doesn't advance the story somehow. LMI's bedroom scene was just as spare, and in either movie, the boy was showing an unusual degree of assertiveness (in a technical sense, "aggression"). Same heaven, same handbasket.

If the dialog has to be changed in order to have vampire Owen saying something that might prompt Abby to ask "does this mean...?", I think there'd be some additional conversation. Vampire Owen still has to seen as not expecting anything of this nature, and he still has to show some degree of surprised pleasure at having a similar heaven-in-a-handbasket dropped into his lap (although maybe not to the same degree as Eli did). I'm having a great deal of trouble coming up with something plausible.

The two overriding concerns as I dabble with re-imagining this critical scene are that (1) it has to be consistent with how the characters would probably interact in "real life", and (2) it has to conform in its compact essence with the existing LMI for storytelling reasons.
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Re: Could the casting have been switched?

Post by lombano » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:09 am

sauvin wrote: Gattoparde59, I also don't have a problem with Abby showing the initiative. Here's an abandoned, abused and neglected little girl who's suddenly had heaven in a handbasket dropped into her lap, and I really could very easily see her latching into it with a death grip. Part of Lombano's objection might be cultural; maybe girls in Spanish-speaking countries are normally expected to be more passive in such matters. I can testify from experience that even really shy girls in the US can be rather forward, even while tending to be indirect.
I defer to those that actually know something about this - I have lived in the US but not as a preteen and I've never really come into contact with American preteens much.
sauvin wrote:OK, then, dispense with the easy part first. Smit-McPhee and Moretz are both astounding actors, and I'm convinced either could have played either role given the right director.
To go back to this for a moment, it's not just a matter of acting ability, but also of looking the part, and that is the one that makes it less clear to me that it would work.
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