Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

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PeteMork
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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by PeteMork » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:44 pm

sauvin wrote:(C) After a few years, the rose of romance no longer has its appealing blush, and Owen has gained enough experience and confidence that he feels he can operate on his own. Fed up with the demands her lifestyle imposes and with her always being just a temperamental snot-nosed kid, they part with considerable acrimony, with Abby taking the house and the car, and Owen keeping the television set and the music collection. This would make it a very American LTROI.

I'll just go away and hide now...
:lol: :lol: Classic (real) Hollywood ending. This is probably even more realistic a possibility than "Oskar ar 40." Write it up, Sauvin.
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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by gkmoberg1 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:42 am

Just watched LMI again. Having not seen it for several months I saw from a fresher viewpoint.

As Lee Kyle pointed out at the start of this thread, the movie starts with Thomas and the camera is on him quite bit, well into the movie. Indeed a powerful statement. Reeve's is laying the groundwork for the viewer to grasp the idea of a cycle. And as LK points out, at their initial meeting both Thomas and Owen are wearing approx the same thing. Yup, they both having things dangling from their mouths, both distrust seeing the other. Hmmmm.

I find the inclusion of the mask Owen wears while doing his initial round of being a peeping tom to be another intentional clue. We see Owen wearing the mask of his likely future. Yes?

I see three likely continuations:

1. A cycle. I think Reeve's hints at this the hardest.
2. She turns Owen. I don't see much groundwork for this in the movie.
3. Owen as a future snack. Ha! It's the "have some now, save some for later" jingle. He's warm and cuddly for now, but that jingle is repeated many times during the film and she did nom Thomas. So she's capable of it.

And at least three alternatives

1. Owen reconnects with the outside world - I'm still favoring his dad - and exits the relationship
2. LMI2 :twisted:
3. Owen does steer Abby into something new.

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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by Casper » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:05 am

gkmoberg1 wrote:I find the inclusion of the mask Owen wears while doing his initial round of being a peeping tom to be another intentional clue. We see Owen wearing the mask of his likely future. Yes?
Or this could be a different omen entirely. Owen is wearing a mask of an old man (Thomas, in fact. As is revealed in the commentary), yet it is transparent. Even though the mask represents him as an old man, we can clearly see that he is still a child. A child who is actually an old person? Hmmmm. ;)
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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by Lee Kyle » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:21 am

Just watched LMI for the first time in five months. Some fresh observations:

1) The acting is amazing. How did Reeves get such remarkable performances out of two children? Kudos all around.

2) The cycle interpretation is relentlessly pushed. As I said previously in this thread, I don't think the cycle is inevitable. But it's certainly the initial interpretation or impression the movie thrusts upon the viewer. In the special features Kodi says he thinks Owen becomes the next father, and it makes sense that a 13-yr-old boy would reach such a conclusion. Other possibilities require more adult consideration.

3) I like the soundtrack. Maybe it's aimed at people like me, who have no musical training whatsoever and therefore can't pick up musical subtleties. But I think the music adds a lot to the overall story. (Random comment: I think the Twilight soundtrack is much deeper and well-thought than the book/movie series itself. When I listen to the Twilight soundtrack on its own, I actually come away feeling the series has meaning.)

4) Impressed yet again with how Owen-centric LMI is. The story is about Owen, not Abby. She's almost a peripheral character, as evidenced by how little screen time she has, and how little substantial dialogue she speaks.

5) Body language is everything. What screen time Abby does have is pure gold. Almost everything she communicates is through non-verbal means - facial expressions, tone of voice, posture, movement. Who is this actress, that she can express so much while saying so little? The key to understanding Abby is understanding her body language - especially the expressions we see when Abby is alone, or at least unobserved.

6) I was Owen's age in 1983, and I think this has to be one reason the movie speaks to me so deeply. The background stuff from 1983 jumps out at me so powerfully. Plus my home/life situation was eerily identical. I feel for the kid. I was that kid. JAL sure nailed that childhood experience. Major kudos to him for capturing it so powerfully.

7) Left wondering about gaps - the time after Thomas dies but Abby is still living in the apartment, the time between killing the detective and the police dept realizing he is missing, the time between Abby's cab departure and pool appearance. None of these temporal intervals can endure - Abby can't stay in that apartment forever, the detective's body is going to get discovered, Abby has to go somewhere after she leaves. Is it all intended to build tension? A sense that some sort of resolution is inevitable, one way or another?

8) I find myself wishing I understood horror movies better. I watched them over and over again as a child (Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, etc - how many times did I see Michael stick that girl to the wall?). But I seldom watch them anymore, and it makes me wonder if there are assumptions or understandings on the director's part that I am simply missing. Does the maker of a horror movie assume the viewer will interpret certain things in certain ways, simply because that's how things work in horror movies? Alas, I do not know.

9) So glad they made LMI! The older you get, the harder it is for anything to move you. The movie woke a part of me up that had been dormant for a long time. I didn't even know I was still capable of reacting to anything in such a way.

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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by gkmoberg1 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:16 am

I agree with your points 4), 5), 6), 7), and 9) but most strongly with "2) The cycle interpretation is relentlessly pushed." Reeves' telling of the story implies more strongly this outcome than any other. It does not inhibit or rule out the others, but this is one it suggests.

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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by Makalli » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:03 am

Lee Kyle wrote:4) Impressed yet again with how Owen-centric LMI is. The story is about Owen, not Abby. She's almost a peripheral character, as evidenced by how little screen time she has, and how little substantial dialogue she speaks.
I agree with/ share you questions on most of all the other things you've said, and this to an extent. There's just one thing. At the pool when Abby saves him, it's meant to be Owen's film from his point of view, why don't we see Abby? :think:

I see the idea, but it just seems to go against the Owen's point of view "theme". Or am I looking at it all wrong?
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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by Lee Kyle » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:16 pm

I've never taken a film class, but my understanding is that movies usually show a character's pov by showing his face rather than what the character himself is seeing.

For example, in the deleted Be Me A Little scene we see Abby being assaulted. We see her facial expressions, although since these are her memories, we shouldn't actually be able to see what she looks like. It's one of the allowances film viewers make, even as theater-goers permit soliloquays.

Given this film norm, seeing only Owen's face at the end seems to emphasize the Owen-centric nature of LMI.

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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by Makalli » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:09 am

I suppose there are many ways to be Owen-centric, focusing on him at the end definitely is one of them. I guess because it was different to LTROI it stood out more.
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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by sauvin » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:23 am

Lee Kyle wrote:3) I like the soundtrack. Maybe it's aimed at people like me, who have no musical training whatsoever and therefore can't pick up musical subtleties. But I think the music adds a lot to the overall story. (Random comment: I think the Twilight soundtrack is much deeper and well-thought than the book/movie series itself. When I listen to the Twilight soundtrack on its own, I actually come away feeling the series has meaning.)
You don't really need any "musical training" to like or dislike something. It's a bit like wine; "real experts" can swoon over a really old bottle of something rare where some of us less sophisticated types will just taste a vaguely interesting vinaigre. Those same experts will probably have to be carted off to the hospital if they're ever forced to down a bottle of my favourite Riesling.

That said, while I've come to appreciate LMI's soundtrack a lot more than I used to (or maybe have simply become "desensitised" to it), it's basically the same two or three themes repeated throughout the movie without any substantial variation and, with rare exceptions, without regard for the scene it pretends to enhance. There are some reasonably effective enhancements, such as the building tension as Owen watches the couple through his telescope, and the quasi-angelic choral thing as Abby arrives. The rest of it, as best I can remember at the moment, was just structurally very simple and tediously repetitive.

Contrast that with LTROI's soundtrack. The introductory theme might be a bit "heavy" for American ears (it was for mine, too), but the rest of it tended to go with a fairly light touch. Check out the soft and darkly moody background music in the moments leading up to Oskar's offering Eli his Rubik's cube - and the tentative "holding your breath" moment as she hesitates to accept it. Check out the relatively quiet theme playing as Oskar flees his father's house and runs into the night to hitch a ride back home - it's full of uneasy undertones. Check out the clear, simple, lighthearted theme that plays in various places as Oskar is either with or is thinking about his girlfriend.

Check out the scenes where something nasty is happening. The predominant instrument in those scenes is a water flute. Very dissonant

I don't think the people responsible for LMI's soundtrack coordinated with the people who laid out the scenes, and I'll maintain forever that it was mostly just too damn SCREECHY. The only parts of it I really did enjoy were the tunes that I remember from those times, such as "Do you really want to hurt me?" I was about twelve years older than Owen in 1983, and so your mileage may vary on this particular point - if it had been music from ten years earlier, I'd have been more profoundly affected.
Lee Kyle wrote:8) I find myself wishing I understood horror movies better. I watched them over and over again as a child (Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, etc - how many times did I see Michael stick that girl to the wall?). But I seldom watch them anymore, and it makes me wonder if there are assumptions or understandings on the director's part that I am simply missing. Does the maker of a horror movie assume the viewer will interpret certain things in certain ways, simply because that's how things work in horror movies? Alas, I do not know.
I once said, as an oblique complaint because of some troubles (iirc) I was having getting some fanfic past moderation, that horror is a delicate thing. Too little, and it may actually come out unintentionally comedic; too much, and it's either overbearing or gratuitously gory. It's rather like trying to go Christmas shopping for somebody you don't know.

We're all afraid of things. If we're not, we're not actually sane, but we're all afraid of different things. Some of us fear wide, open spaces, others fear the dark, others fear spiders, and the list goes on and on. Many of us share many of these fears, and so a movie set mostly in darkness and thrusting isolation, loneliness and persecution to the fore is likely to affect large numbers of us.

What I've been running into with the horror genre I've consumed voraciously over the decades is twofold: any more, it tends to be formulaic or derivative crap, and the things that used to scare the living bejabbers out of me when I was a kid these days can sometimes just make me chuckle in mild amusement. Hitchcocks "The Birds", which I saw at the drive-in while I was still in elementary school, had me having nightmares for a very long time, and while I'll maintain it's a very well crafted movie, and still very effective, it's gotten to be impossible for me to "suspend disbelief" enough to get lost in it. This, in spite of the fact that I can still get lost in movies I've seen before.

You should note that the face of horror has changed over the decades. There's a great deal in common between much of what was popular in the '80's and what was popular in the '50's, but there are also very important differences. As an example, much of what I remember from the 50's was basically of an "us versus them" mentality, where much of what I remember from the late '70's on through the middle '80's tended to have a much more personal flavour.

What happens to audiences over large numbers also happens to us individually. Things change, and we usually change (somewhat) with them.

Besides - I can only watch so many movies about young women running away from Menacing Bad Guys in the night before my eyes start going funny and it starts getting to be time to turn on some real horror, such as the Nightly News, or maybe a sitcom.
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Re: Thomas to Owen: Can the Cycle Be Broken?

Post by Lee Kyle » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:58 am

I appreciate your comments about horror. At no point did I find anything in LMI scary or frightening, whereas I'm sure I would have if I'd seen it 30 yrs ago. The detective's fateful march through the dark hallway I found simply obligatory. I was glad Elias and Cody played it straight, but the interesting part of that scene was Cody's reaction, not the supposed attempt at scaring the audience.

My knowledge of music is so minimal that I don't understand the phrases you are using to describe music. I'm such a visual learner that a soundtrack really needs to be shoved in my face for me to even notice it. For better or for worse, then, perhaps the soundtrack was aimed at musical neophytes like me. I'm not saying more sophisticated listeners should like it, of course. Simply that it might be accomplishing its intended purpose.

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