Blackeberg vs. Los Alamos

[flypaper]

Well, any way you look at it, Owen's mom is hanging on by her fingernails, and under the circumstances Owen is pretty much fending for himself. Not an ideal situation in anyone's book, but certainly not unheard of, either. We don't know why the marriage fell apart, but in times of distress, many turn to their faith to try and see their way through to a better life. I don't view her as a zealot because of that.

Thank you......

[PeteMork]

Thomas was a minor player in the Abby Owen story, so much so he disappeared by act 2. Abby could have moved in with out him at the start of the movie and it would have flowed along just as well as it did. What part of Thomas role affects the movie so much that he had to be there? Food? Abby was able to hunt for herself. The photo strip you say? that could easily be on the table with out Thomas ever being in the movie. Where does it show Thomas and Abby were in love at all, Abby was completely new to this game called love, she had to ask Owen if there was anything special about going steady....hardly the thing you'd hear from some one who was supposed to be in love for 40 years with Thomas ....

I do see your point. But one of the things that struck me in LMI was Abby's tenderness toward Thomas; something I missed the first time I saw the film because I had expected Thomas to have the same relationship with Abby that Håkan did with Eli -- one I interpreted as stand-offish at best and contempt at worst. After repeated viewings of LMI, I saw what I interpreted as real love between Abby and Thomas. I think Reeves thought carefully about every minute of film he left in the final cut. The film strip was there for a reason. And the carefully choreographed scenes of affection between Abby and Thomas, at least as I interpreted them, expressed the remains of a love between them that had seen better days.

And, when Thomas was young, I'm not sure what the term for 'going steady' was -- but I'm pretty sure that wasn't it. And since Abby hadn't been on the dating circuit until Owen, she would likely be unfamiliar with the term.

[Lee Kyle]

Her religious beliefs seem a strange combination of liberal Protestantism (Unitarian dinner prayers), fundamentalist Protestantism (TV preachers), and Catholicism (the Jesus picture in the bedroom). Since such a combination is all but non-existent in real life (although to be fair, this is America - any imaginable syncretistic amalgamation is technically possible), I took the various religious strands as fairly superficial. More like the mom is grasping for something, anything, to help her as her world collapses. Not that I'm trying to attack religious faith or anything. It's just that if she can't recognize the differences/ inconsistencies, it may mean she hasn't delved very deeply into any particular set of religious views.

I feel badly for her. I was in Owen's situation too many times, watching my mother's marriages disintegrate and being powerless to do anything about it. Too bad she ended up the bottle. I saw that, too.

[flypaper]

Abby could have moved in with out him at the start of the movie and it would have flowed along just as well as it did.

Very possibly, but there are logistical concerns. Even if she's fully a woman wearing a child's body, her appearance would make it very difficult to sign leases or rental agreements.

Where does it show Thomas and Abby were in love at all, Abby was completely new to this game called love, she had to ask Owen if there was anything special about going steady....hardly the thing you'd hear from some one who was supposed to be in love for 40 years with Thomas ....

Maybe "in love" is a stretch, and maybe it isn't. It's plausible that they'd met forty years earlier, parted, and by some happenstance reunited within the past smallish span of time. Is it reasonable to claim that a 12- or 13-something Thomas went on from brief acquaintance with Abby to become a hardened and manifestly skilled serial murderer without Abby's influence? Possibly, but it seems unlikely. Far longer odds are that he'd have gone on to become whatever other little boys of his is childhood station drift into, assuming he hadn't managed to re-integrate with his family and with society. With his apparent lack of formal education, it's highly unlikely he learned his craft in military service in view of the government having long ago begun to mandate a certain minimal level of education before entering service (unless I err). Even a practically orphaned childhood in South Chicago won't normally produce a piece of work like Thomas.

It seems more likely that Thomas had remained with Abby these past forty years. It's not fact, it's an inference drawn from the movie. Compare the lifeless, stony Thomas who goes hunting with the Thomas who shares a tender moment with Abby in the kitchen, and what many of us see as a moment of regret and pain at his hospital window; these are the datum points on which we base the conjecture that theirs is not a strictly commercial consideration. Thomas is himself a study of contrasts. Of dualism.

From this inference we then furthermore assert a probability - again, not a fact - that Abby is not new to love. She is, however, a child out of her time. Did people "go steady" when Thomas had been a boy, in the late 30's or early 40's? Did "going steady" mean the same thing as it seems to today, a flimsy pretext for physical intimacy? If in all this time Abby had met nobody else, it's not surprising that Abby might be uncertain of how much the significance of this type of relationship might have changed since last she'd been exposed to the possibility of it.

From this, we get the impression that where LTROI is about birth, LMI is about rebirth.

As far as a lease and all that she could have hired a real estate agent over the phone " Hello', Find me a place for $1000 a month and when you do mail the lease to Abby, c/o General Delivery, Los Alamos Post Office NM, when I get it I'll sign and put payment in it plus your fee. Thank you"

Fairly simple....

She may not be a child of the 80's but she didn't have any problem loading the tape player down in the basement. As far as the longevity of the term going steady Yes I would say it might go back further than forty years using 1982 as a bench mark. Some movies I've watched from the 30's have used that term.

But all that is really side stepping the my point that Thomas was a throw away part, I like Thomas I cant think of the movie with out him and it would have moved it further away from its LTROI roots but that doesn't alter the fact that Thomas was just the hired help.

Don't quite see what the birth rebirth remark is supposed to point to?

[flypaper]

Thomas was a minor player in the Abby Owen story, so much so he disappeared by act 2. Abby could have moved in with out him at the start of the movie and it would have flowed along just as well as it did. What part of Thomas role affects the movie so much that he had to be there? Food? Abby was able to hunt for herself. The photo strip you say? that could easily be on the table with out Thomas ever being in the movie. Where does it show Thomas and Abby were in love at all, Abby was completely new to this game called love, she had to ask Owen if there was anything special about going steady....hardly the thing you'd hear from some one who was supposed to be in love for 40 years with Thomas ....

I do see your point. But one of the things that struck me in LMI was Abby's tenderness toward Thomas; something I missed the first time I saw the film because I had expected Thomas to have the same relationship with Abby that Håkan did with Eli -- one I interpreted as stand-offish at best and contempt at worst. After repeated viewings of LMI, I saw what I interpreted as real love between Abby and Thomas. I think Reeves thought carefully about every minute of film he left in the final cut. The film strip was there for a reason. And the carefully choreographed scenes of affection between Abby and Thomas, at least as I interpreted them, expressed the remains of a love between them that had seen better days.

And, when Thomas was young, I'm not sure what the term for 'going steady' was -- but I'm pretty sure that wasn't it. And since Abby hadn't been on the dating circuit until Owen, she would likely be unfamiliar with the term.

I do see tenderness for Thomas, but I don't see LOVE, I see more of a faithful caretaker (Thomas) being soothed and acknowledged by a long time and faithful friend. Yes the film strip was there to show Owen that Abby and Thomas go back long way, there is no sign of any feelings in the pictures they don't even have an arm draped on each other. Abby sits there staring straight ahead and Thomas looks very uncomfortable with a smile and then without seeming unsure what pose to strike. It certainly doesn't strike me as anything deeper.

[sauvin]

As far as a lease and all that she could have hired a real estate agent over the phone " Hello', Find me a place for $1000 a month and when you do mail the lease to Abby, c/o General Delivery, Los Alamos Post Office NM, when I get it I'll sign and put payment in it plus your fee. Thank you"

Fairly simple....

She sounds awfully young, too. Granted that there was no "grid" such as we have today to try to live away from, but I clearly remember having to furnish references, sign papers with witnesses and suchlike before renting apartments in the '80's. I had to show driver's licenses, too. Still, you're right, she could have "convinced" some poor schmuck to act in loco parentis temporarily.

She may not be a child of the 80's but she didn't have any problem loading the tape player down in the basement.

I think it's a mistake to conflate mastery of relatively simple technological development with mastery of changing times and cultures, particularly if (and yes, if) she's obliged to spend roughly half her year in some kind of coma-like state.

As far as the longevity of the term going steady Yes I would say it might go back further than forty years using 1982 as a bench mark. Some movies I've watched from the 30's have used that term.

But did the term have the same significance in the '30's? People seemed to marry much earlier in life than is the case today. People committed earlier, and tended to remain committed. "Going steady" these days can be amazingly ephemeral. If, as we suspect, Abby is a couple of centuries old, she'll no doubt be acutely aware that times change, sometimes rapidly, while she isn't looking, and she'll be slow to enter into any kind of deal without first having made sure she understands the terms involved.

But all that is really side stepping the my point that Thomas was a throw away part, I like Thomas I cant think of the movie with out him and it would have moved it further away from its LTROI roots but that doesn't alter the fact that Thomas was just the hired help.

This is not fact. It is conjecture.

Don't quite see what the birth rebirth remark is supposed to point to?

Identification.

[flypaper]

As far as a lease and all that she could have hired a real estate agent over the phone " Hello', Find me a place for $1000 a month and when you do mail the lease to Abby, c/o General Delivery, Los Alamos Post Office NM, when I get it I'll sign and put payment in it plus your fee. Thank you"

Fairly simple....

She sounds awfully young, too. Granted that there was no "grid" such as we have today to try to live away from, but I clearly remember having to furnish references, sign papers with witnesses and suchlike before renting apartments in the '80's. I had to show driver's licenses, too. Still, you're right, she could have "convinced" some poor schmuck to act in loco parentis temporarily.

She may not be a child of the 80's but she didn't have any problem loading the tape player down in the basement.

I think it's a mistake to conflate mastery of relatively simple technological development with mastery of changing times and cultures, particularly if (and yes, if) she's obliged to spend roughly half her year in some kind of coma-like state.

As far as the longevity of the term going steady Yes I would say it might go back further than forty years using 1982 as a bench mark. Some movies I've watched from the 30's have used that term.

But did the term have the same significance in the '30's? People seemed to marry much earlier in life than is the case today. People committed earlier, and tended to remain committed. "Going steady" these days can be amazingly ephemeral. If, as we suspect, Abby is a couple of centuries old, she'll no doubt be acutely aware that times change, sometimes rapidly, while she isn't looking, and she'll be slow to enter into any kind of deal without first having made sure she understands the terms involved.

But all that is really side stepping the my point that Thomas was a throw away part, I like Thomas I cant think of the movie with out him and it would have moved it further away from its LTROI roots but that doesn't alter the fact that Thomas was just the hired help.

This is not fact. It is conjecture.

Don't quite see what the birth rebirth remark is supposed to point to?

Identification.

I just rented an apartment a year ago it took 20 minutes with the real estate agent only because I was there in person, I was not asked for anything but 2 checks one for the agent and a months rent in advance for the owner. The lease came in the mail I signed it six times put it back in the envelope and moved in. Simple She didn't sound so young when she was chewing Thomas out. I'm 6-5 235 but I can squeak out something if I had to.

As far as Abby in the 80's we don't know for sure how long she was up and walking again, even if she was out for ten years the difference was not that earth shattering. I would think she would be more out of touch with he news of the day and such. Other things may have advanced but not beyond recognition.


Going steady is a pretty self descriptive term I can't see how it could be anything else. And the movies I've watched seem to support that fact.

Its a fact to me that Thomas's part in the movie did little to advance the relationship between Abby and Owen, and for me that relationship was the movie so his part was just that a part.

Identification of what? I'm not being a wise guy here I just am lost about the statement and follow up answer....sorry.

[lombano]

Dunno about "complaints" about religion, but the US does seem to be the present home of what once seemed to be the exclusive realm of the people over whom a Vatican held sway: "Praise $deity and pass the @#$#@%# ammo!". This much aside, and observations about traditional American religious conservatism in my little corn field even now, what I was pointing to was hollowness. That whole post pointed to it. I have no problem with people saying grace at the dinner table, but look at what Owen's mother is like: remote, incurious, shallow. Granted, she's going through a tough time with divorce and whatnot, but she mirrors Abby's dualism in being a remote and uncaring boat anchor when she starts turning bottles bottoms up. She believes in her bottle a lot more than she does in the grace she says at the dinner table, and the proof is in how she chooses to live. Religion is, for her, a facade, a kind of uniform to wear, and nothing more.

I would summarise her in one word: hypocrite. She is, or ought to be, her son's keeper, and is very keen on going through the motions of things like saying grace, but not when her duty would require her to do something she's rather not to, such as staying sober at least some of the time, actually try to see what's going on in her obviously troubled son's life, etc.

I would summarize her as a harried woman with a preteen kid who is going through a divorce!! Something that is very traumatic. She has to work and take care of a home, sad yes, hypocrite no way. Believe me you gotta live it to understand it. And how can you say she only wears her believes as a uniform, all we see is a grace at a dinner and a picture of Jesus how you put those tiny points together and come up with what you did. In fact I cant see how you made any of those conclusions about the mother. Expand, clue me in to what you saw that I didn't.

What I saw was empty ceremony - she says grace before meals, has a portrait of Jesus, etc, all of which basically cost her nothing. They require no real effort or sacrifice, and above all they don't require her to leave her comfort zone. They're not outward manifestations of inner conviction in that I at least see no such conviction anywhere; instead of being symbolic rituals with real substance behind them, they seem to replace substance. Just as Owen steals under the portrait's gaze, she neglects him under the portrait's gaze. We don't know that she works, and as for taking care of a home, it's not a big place, there are no young children and it's just two people, so it's not that bad. As far as we know, she has no major responsibilities whatsoever apart from Owen. The things that would actually require her to leave her comfort zone or make some effort, she doesn't do - like trying to reach out to Owen or trying to deal with her drinking problem (which isn't just someone having a couple of glasses of claret with dinner, with which I wouldn't have a problem, it's habitual, chronic drunkenness). Of all the characters, only Abby ever makes any effort to reach out to him - his father merely takes an opening to complain about his ex, his school goes through the motions of how intolerably wrong and inexcusable violence is and so forth, etc. Abby instead says 'what happened there?'
It would be very different if I saw the mother trying and failing. A parent trying to reach out to an adolescent and failing miserably is hardly unheard of (nor for, that matter, parents getting it horribly wrong with the best intentions), but Owen's mother doesn't try at all. We know she knows Owen is troubled (after all, she's the one that shows up at the school so that both her and the authorities can pretend to be concerned) but she never even tries to find out what's going on, let alone do something about it.
Of all the 'normal' adults in LMI, I find the cop the most sympathetic one (not enough to make his death scene work, but still) because he, however ineptly, is at least trying to do his job. Actually I find Owen's dad worse than the mother, because Owen actually tries to reach out to him and he just takes an opening to complain about Owen's mother (if she's so bad, why doesn't he at least try to spend some time with his son, or at least have a proper phone conversation?).

[flypaper]

[/quote]What I saw was empty ceremony - she says grace before meals, has a portrait of Jesus, etc, all of which basically cost her nothing. They require no real effort or sacrifice, and above all they don't require her to leave her comfort zone. They're not outward manifestations of inner conviction in that I at least see no such conviction anywhere; instead of being symbolic rituals with real substance behind them, they seem to replace substance. Just as Owen steals under the portrait's gaze, she neglects him under the portrait's gaze. We don't know that she works, and as for taking care of a home, it's not a big place, there are no young children and it's just two people, so it's not that bad. As far as we know, she has no major responsibilities whatsoever apart from Owen. The things that would actually require her to leave her comfort zone or make some effort, she doesn't do - like trying to reach out to Owen or trying to deal with her drinking problem (which isn't just someone having a couple of glasses of claret with dinner, with which I wouldn't have a problem, it's habitual, chronic drunkenness). Of all the characters, only Abby ever makes any effort to reach out to him - his father merely takes an opening to complain about his ex, his school goes through the motions of how intolerably wrong and inexcusable violence is and so forth, etc. Abby instead says 'what happened there?'
It would be very different if I saw the mother trying and failing. A parent trying to reach out to an adolescent and failing miserably is hardly unheard of (nor for, that matter, parents getting it horribly wrong with the best intentions), but Owen's mother doesn't try at all. We know she knows Owen is troubled (after all, she's the one that shows up at the school so that both her and the authorities can pretend to be concerned) but she never even tries to find out what's going on, let alone do something about it.
Of all the 'normal' adults in LMI, I find the cop the most sympathetic one (not enough to make his death scene work, but still) because he, however ineptly, is at least trying to do his job. Actually I find Owen's dad worse than the mother, because Owen actually tries to reach out to him and he just takes an opening to complain about Owen's mother (if she's so bad, why doesn't he at least try to spend some time with his son, or at least have a proper phone conversation?).[/quote]
[/quote]



Comfort zone? All we see is her saying grace. For all we know (which the movie neither shows or denies) she could go to church every day. Maybe she walks up and down the stairs to her apartment on her knees in sack cloth praying for help.

Face it the movie is about Abby and Owen NOT the redemption of the mother.

Showing up at school after Owen got in trouble only showed that she was called about the incident, she tells the principal that Owens a good boy,what other trouble should she be worried about? Do we hear Owen tell her he likes to peek out the window...I'm sure I didn't see him go around the house in front of her stabbing the air with the kitchen knife, so what was she supposed to know? Owen comes off in the movie as a fairly normal 12 year old who has some bullies on his tail something that even his school teachers were either unaware of, or thought it not bad enough to notify the mother.
Why not pull apart the cop for kicking in the door with out back-up, or placing his finger on the trigger before he was in danger.?

Owens mother as portrayed in the movie was a divorced women who had a teenage son, who at one time had a family and life and now it was crashing in on her, she looks for some comfort as any one would, her choice was to keep a normal life with grace at dinner and a few glasses of wine after to help her through the empty nights that used to be filled with a husband.Sad but not the cold monster you paint her as.

[sauvin]

What I saw was empty ceremony - she says grace before meals, has a portrait of Jesus, etc, all of which basically cost her nothing. They require no real effort or sacrifice, and above all they don't require her to leave her comfort zone. They're not outward manifestations of inner conviction in that I at least see no such conviction anywhere; instead of being symbolic rituals with real substance behind them, they seem to replace substance. Just as Owen steals under the portrait's gaze, she neglects him under the portrait's gaze. We don't know that she works, and as for taking care of a home, it's not a big place, there are no young children and it's just two people, so it's not that bad. As far as we know, she has no major responsibilities whatsoever apart from Owen. The things that would actually require her to leave her comfort zone or make some effort, she doesn't do - like trying to reach out to Owen or trying to deal with her drinking problem (which isn't just someone having a couple of glasses of claret with dinner, with which I wouldn't have a problem, it's habitual, chronic drunkenness). Of all the characters, only Abby ever makes any effort to reach out to him - his father merely takes an opening to complain about his ex, his school goes through the motions of how intolerably wrong and inexcusable violence is and so forth, etc. Abby instead says 'what happened there?'
It would be very different if I saw the mother trying and failing. A parent trying to reach out to an adolescent and failing miserably is hardly unheard of (nor for, that matter, parents getting it horribly wrong with the best intentions), but Owen's mother doesn't try at all. We know she knows Owen is troubled (after all, she's the one that shows up at the school so that both her and the authorities can pretend to be concerned) but she never even tries to find out what's going on, let alone do something about it.
Of all the 'normal' adults in LMI, I find the cop the most sympathetic one (not enough to make his death scene work, but still) because he, however ineptly, is at least trying to do his job. Actually I find Owen's dad worse than the mother, because Owen actually tries to reach out to him and he just takes an opening to complain about Owen's mother (if she's so bad, why doesn't he at least try to spend some time with his son, or at least have a proper phone conversation?).

Comfort zone? All we see is her saying grace. For all we know (which the movie neither shows or denies) she could go to church every day. Maybe she walks up and down the stairs to her apartment on her knees in sack cloth praying for help.

As you say, the movie gives no evidence she goes to church at all. If she were to walk up and down the stairs on her knees in sack cloth praying for help, a much stronger case could be made for religious mania, possibly even monomania.

Face it the movie is about Abby and Owen NOT the redemption of the mother.

The movie isn't about Owen's mother at all. Her role is to help convey what Owen's world is like for him, nothing more.

Showing up at school after Owen got in trouble only showed that she was called about the incident, she tells the principal that Owens a good boy,what other trouble should she be worried about?

She might never have known that Owen isn't just using his telescope to look at the stars. Many wouldn't.

Yes, she says that Owen is a "good boy", but she says nothing else. Again, she doesn't ask why he defended himself. The school authorities are just as bad in this scene; Owen's teachers may have known or had reason to suspect that he'd been continually harassed and tormented, but meetings with school authorities like this are generally with school counselors, principals, or other "office" people who don't have relatively little contact with the student body. Neither Owen's mother nor the school authority in this meeting gave any evidence they'd known about the bullying problem. The school's sole interest was in prosecuting Owen.

What's even more significant is Owen's refusal to admit the injury to his face was the result of an attack. He told his mother it was an accident. Why would he be uncomfortable telling his mother such a thing? One interpretation is that boys don't like admitting they can't handle their own problems, and one does suspect that Owen is no exception. Another interpretation is that Owen knows he can't, that she won't listen or understand and that she won't do anything about it. These interpretations do not conflict. From this single incident we can reasonably infer that Owen doesn't tell his mother anything about what's going on in his personal life.

Owen comes off in the movie as a fairly normal 12 year old who has some bullies on his tail something that even his school teachers were either unaware of, or thought it not bad enough to notify the mother.

A truly caring and sensitive mother would have sense something wrong long before. Owen would have come home uncharacteristically sullen and despondent. The school authorities shouldn't have had to send her a memo.

Why not pull apart the cop for kicking in the door with out back-up, or placing his finger on the trigger before he was in danger.?

Ugh, I wish I could find the relevant posts! We have roasted the cop for doing all kinds of harebrained things, including kicking the door open without probable cause - a squeaking floor warrants this!?

Owens mother as portrayed in the movie was a divorced women who had a teenage son, who at one time had a family and life and now it was crashing in on her, she looks for some comfort as any one would, her choice was to keep a normal life with grace at dinner and a few glasses of wine after to help her through the empty nights that used to be filled with a husband.Sad but not the cold monster you paint her as.

Prayer? Not a problem. Religious pictures on the walls? Not a problem. A glass or two of wine during and after dinner? Not a problem. These things are common and not improper. If it were just a glass or two at dinner once or twice a month, it wouldn't even qualify as "helping her through an empty night".

But we're given a very strong impression that it's more than just a "few glasses". We're given the impression she's an alcoholic. The first scene at the kitchen table between Owen and his mother was just as telling as the second. They'd been talking (more accurately, she'd been talking at him); she'd been paying at least superficial attention to him. When the phone rang, she grabbed the glass, turned her back to him, and moved away. Suddenly, Owen didn't exist anymore, and it appears he remains off her personal horizon for the remainder of the night.

Owen grabbed a kitchen knife off a counter next to a sink that looked like it contained a couple days worth of dirty dishes.

Sad, yes, but she's not being accused of monstrosity. Whatever her "empty nights" might be like, most people would say that while she has her teenage son in her custody she has responsibility for every aspect of his welfare, including his emotional health. She's too lost in her own personal problems to pay any attention to his. She comes across as inaccessible and uncaring.

She's being accused of being neglectful.