Let the Analysis In

[PeteMork]

And of course, in one of my favorite scenes in the book, Eli almost noms Oskar and stops only when he strokes her cheek. This scene IMO should have been in both films.

It would be too unsubtle in a film, though it works in the book.

I think a director who could produce the incredible subtleties of the bedroom scene could certainly figure out a way to have Oskar subtly stroke a cheek. But maybe not...he did also produce that awful cat scene.

[ColBlair]

I just watched the jogger scene again, and you may be right; I couldn’t tell for sure. She does make a sound just before she sprints away, but its meaning isn’t clear to me.

But it’s not the remorse per se that I was talking about; it’s the connection between Eli and her vampire side. There are times in the film when she’s clearly both, and many more such times in the novel. The encounter with the old woman is a perfect example. Both sides of Eli are present at the same time; she is very matter-of-fact, even cold, when she drinks her blood. At the same time, she’s sympathetic and holds her head in her lap and comforts her as she’s bleeding to death, even closing her eyes after she dies. Two sides of the same person; also shown implicitly by JAL and TA in the film in many subtle ways (one of which is Eli clearly crying over Jocke’s body, possibly put in to make up for not including Eli’s empathy in the old woman scene).

The line between the good and evil in Eli is more blurred than in Abby, partially, IMO, because of the extreme physical changes Abby undergoes when she transforms, including her voice. There seems to be no room for a blending of the two personae, which makes the inner conflict between the two forces harder to imagine. In fact, I don’t believe that MR took that aspect of the novel into account at all. Abby is almost like a werewolf in that the victim of that ‘infection’ is completely innocent until the full moon, then he disappears into the background as the monster takes complete control.

I hope I’m making myself clear. It’s not that LMI is terrible because this conflict isn’t present. It just has a bit less depth in this area IMO.

I see what you mean now. Sorta off subject, but did you also think that Abby's vampire state equaled madness or rage? I ask that cause when she attacked Virginia it was like she was mad at humanity or mad for the fact she wanted to be human.

[abner_mohl]

And of course, in one of my favorite scenes in the book, Eli almost noms Oskar and stops only when he strokes her cheek. This scene IMO should have been in both films. But I think it might have been totally out of character for it to have been in LMI, because of this ‘separateness’ that MR has built into his interpretation of Abby.

I wonder if this was the inspiration for Reeves to have Abby display affection for Owen and Thomas by bringing their hands to her cheek.

[ColBlair]

And of course, in one of my favorite scenes in the book, Eli almost noms Oskar and stops only when he strokes her cheek. This scene IMO should have been in both films. But I think it might have been totally out of character for it to have been in LMI, because of this ‘separateness’ that MR has built into his interpretation of Abby.

I wonder if this was the inspiration for Reeves to have Abby display affection for Owen and Thomas by bringing their hands to her cheek.

Interesting observation there Abner.

[PeteMork]

I see what you mean now. Sorta off subject, but did you also think that Abby's vampire state equaled madness or rage? I ask that cause when she attacked Virginia it was like she was mad at humanity or mad for the fact she wanted to be human.

Good question, but I think that, at least fundamentally, her vampire state was caused by hunger primarily, just as it did in the LTROI and the novel. However, I did feel that rage was more of a component in Abby's vampire than in Eli's (except of course for the pool scene in both films). Eli was angry at Hakan when he came back empty-handed, but Abby was enraged when Thomas returned. Consequently, I felt that Thomas's life was in more danger than Hakan's had been.

When Abby attacked Virginia, it did seem a bit more than just looking for a meal, so you may be right. Abby had almost killed Owen, and could easily have been angry at herself for that reason alone. It hadn't been that long since she had eaten, plus the fact that Virginia wasn't alone and Abby could see that she wasn't alone. So why risk attacking her at all? Rage seems to be the most likely reason.

[ColBlair]

I see what you mean now. Sorta off subject, but did you also think that Abby's vampire state equaled madness or rage? I ask that cause when she attacked Virginia it was like she was mad at humanity or mad for the fact she wanted to be human.

Good question, but I think that, at least fundamentally, her vampire state was caused by hunger primarily, just as it did in the LTROI and the novel. However, I did feel that rage was more of a component in Abby's vampire than in Eli's (except of course for the pool scene in both films). Eli was angry at Hakan when he came back empty-handed, but Abby was enraged when Thomas returned. Consequently, I felt that Thomas's life was in more danger than Hakan's had been.

When Abby attacked Virginia, it did seem a bit more than just looking for a meal, so you may be right. Abby had almost killed Owen, and could easily have been angry at herself for that reason alone. It hadn't been that long since she had eaten, plus the fact that Virginia wasn't alone and Abby could see that she wasn't alone. So why risk attacking her at all? Rage seems to be the most likely reason.

I believe that too about Thomas. Though he does yell back at her, so I don't think he was in any extreme danger. Yeah, when she left Owen down in the basement her hunger controlled her and she might have mad and scared cause she didn't want Owen to know right away, even though she left clues. That goes the same with Eli in both movie and novel. I do think when she attacked Virginia was mainly due to lust for blood more than just wanting to attack her. If she had been 25, she may have done something different, but she's only 12 so she's not "experienced" and tends to attack someone within the eye level.

[danielma]

That's right, I find the hoodie to be more envoking of a Vampire Cloak/Hood then I do anything else.

I think the reason why most of us don't see it like that is that the cloak has aristocratic connotations, while the hoodie doesn't.

Well whether Reeves intended it or not that was the imagery it invoked for me. To me, Reeves at times was far more focused on painting that vampiric side. The vamped out transformation, the hoodie that is maybe trying to conceal that face. Whether Reeves intended to or not that is the imagery it invoked for me. It made it clear to me that Reeves was trying to draw out a little bit more of that Vamp side to Abby. Or maybe that was just me who saw that in it.

I have to disagree there. I say this cause the hoodie seems to represent that she is hiding something that Owen or anyone else shouldn't know. Heck, maybe her hair got white and she covered up her hair so no one would notice. That's what makes a movie exciting, less is more and you are able to use your imagination. Personally, it's a hoodie and she is wearing it cause she wants to if you ask me. I mean she could be wearing a tank top and shorts for all that matters, but one may look at it as if she is a slut or something. The other is when she drops the cube, she drops it cause of those hunger pains, heck I would be doing that too. Take note, I'm only going by what seen in the book too and the book alone. So comparing LMI and LTROI is like comparing apples and oranges cause they are both fruit in the end. I think the reason why Abby and Thomas fight is that they are a couple and they fight. couples do that. Abby was cold to thomas cause he failed and maybe her vampirism takes a Hyde effect when it takes over. The other is that maybe she is mad cause he is aging and she is not. I mean you have to take effect that maybe Abby is mad that she is immortal and not a human. She wants to live like everyone else. She hates being a vampire fair and square maybe putting her emotions out on Thomas and not meaning to hurt him. When she showed affection, I knew from the first second she didn't mean to harm him at all. One could say that after meeting Owen, Abby and Thomas came onto good terms. We don't know what we see behind the screen.

The hospital scene in LMI shows bad things have gotten between Abby and Thomas and she is showing how sorry she is to him. That's how I seen it too. Just to bring this out in the open, I'm not saying you're wrong about LMI, you have a right to say that you didn't like it. I'll say this again, the reason why I like LMI, is how Owen and Abby enjoy their company and how she wanted to be around another person her age. I think when Thomas grew up, he became distant. One clue that I made me think of this after reading the posts here and the IMDB was when she warned Owen that she couldn't be friends with him. In her mind, she might as well be alone if she was destined to be alone.

But in many ways that was the problem, it never seemed like it was just a couple fighting, it seemed like a complete berating at times towards Thomas. I've always said that BOTH films kind of Butcher the Hakan character. In LTROI they gave me too little reason to find him to be a complete Monster (although there are hints of it) whilst in LMI, they made that Monster into one of the more Sympathetic characters of the movie. I felt bad for Thomas in this version, I felt that his life has been nothing but Servitude to her. The beratings don't feel new to me, it feels like this has been happening for the past few years for Thomas. I know couples fight but this was at times just cold and sinister berating. At least to me it was.

Yeah she shows affection, and on this note I will say that I don't think Abby is completely uncaring to these boys, I do think there is still that part of her that is human. She's not a sociopath. But my problem is that at the point that she does kill Thomas, she's already chosen Owen. The scene prior, just before the acid burn scene, is essentially Abby and Thomas' break up scene. When Thomas askes her not to see that boy, its essentially the jealous boyfriend demanding his girlfriend not to see her best friend. Abby denies him this by pulling back from his touch, but its not a defiant teenager rebelling against her parent. Its her way of saying that she has already chosen Owen. But yet she is still willing for Thomas to go out and risk his life for her.

I know comparing the two films is like comparing fruit. But take the same scene in LTROI, for me that exact same scene feels more like a shady deal between Eli and Hakan. When he asks her not to see that boy, it feels like there is something at stake here, almost that Eli knows she needs Hakan for the time being. Even if she doesn't like him in particular, she still needs him. The touch felt like a hint of shadier dealings at foot.

I just started to loose more and more sympathy for Abby in the process. The way she treats Thomas is much more in the way of a Servant then she does if it were someone to care for her.. I know couples fight, but their fights feel more like a berating of a servant then a couple fighting. Her way of dealing with his demise is simply to move straight on, for me there was no sense of her really breaking the cycle and in some ways it almost felt like it could be any poor sap boy to fill this void for her. The cycle for her continues, and even though Owen may be happy for the short time. The sad truth is his future will be that of Thomas. A eventual life of servitude rather than that of affection or care.

That's one thing I liked about LMI, is that to me it's Abby's story more than Owen's cause she is getting a second chance and that second chance is owen. To me also, Thomas opened one door, and Owen opened the last door. in other words, when Abby met Thomas, even though she cared about him, she couldn't turn him. This caused a lot of problems later down on the road so they were cold to one another as the years went by.

But that's just it, there is nothing to really tell me that she will change her ways with Owen. It doesn't feel like a second chance to me. It feels like a natural progression for Abby. As I said above her time with Thomas was over before she killed him, going with Owen just seems like the natural progression in her cycle. There was nothing really there to show me she will change or have a second chance with Owen. I don't want to say your wrong in your thought, I'm just stating how I saw the movie. And why I started to lose sympathy for Abby in the process.

See this is the problem I have with BOTH films, in the long run both films really butchered the Hakan character and his intent. With Alfredson he side steps everything that should be done to paint Hakan as the true monster of the movie, whilst Reeves paints his Hakan character to be (in a weird way) one of the most sympathetic characters in the whole movie. I think both films missed the point of Hakan. Granted I let Alfredson's slide a little only because Hakan is such an enigma in that film. That and there are some of the slight pedophilic tones within that film. But in my honest opinion, I think both films screwed the pooch a little with the Hakan character.

[lombano]

I see what you mean now. Sorta off subject, but did you also think that Abby's vampire state equaled madness or rage? I ask that cause when she attacked Virginia it was like she was mad at humanity or mad for the fact she wanted to be human.

Good question, but I think that, at least fundamentally, her vampire state was caused by hunger primarily, just as it did in the LTROI and the novel. However, I did feel that rage was more of a component in Abby's vampire than in Eli's (except of course for the pool scene in both films). Eli was angry at Hakan when he came back empty-handed, but Abby was enraged when Thomas returned. Consequently, I felt that Thomas's life was in more danger than Hakan's had been.

When Abby attacked Virginia, it did seem a bit more than just looking for a meal, so you may be right. Abby had almost killed Owen, and could easily have been angry at herself for that reason alone. It hadn't been that long since she had eaten, plus the fact that Virginia wasn't alone and Abby could see that she wasn't alone. So why risk attacking her at all? Rage seems to be the most likely reason.

Abby struck me as far more reckless than Eli, which I suppose fits well with 'adolescence gone wrong.' The LMI attack was far more reckless than the other versions. Her anger at Thomas can be seen as part of these angry, reckless reactions. The problem with making Abby more reckless than Eli is that it makes the bleeding scene much less powerful.
Thomas' defiant reaction I view as practically begging Abby to put him out of his misery. This fits with the cyclical story - when she rescues Owen, he practically seems to be saying 'Why didn't you just let me drown?' Which makes sense given he knew what his fate would be with her and, on the other hand, his old life had nothing to offer, especially now that, after having been given hope, it had been cruelly shown to have a big catch.

[ColBlair]

I had to do some edits here in case anyone is wondering why certain things are changed.

But in many ways that was the problem, it never seemed like it was just a couple fighting, it seemed like a complete berating at times towards Thomas. I've always said that BOTH films kind of Butcher the Hakan character. In LTROI they gave me too little reason to find him to be a complete Monster (although there are hints of it) whilst in LMI, they made that Monster into one of the more Sympathetic characters of the movie. I felt bad for Thomas in this version, I felt that his life has been nothing but Servitude to her. The beratings don't feel new to me, it feels like this has been happening for the past few years for Thomas. I know couples fight but this was at times just cold and sinister berating. At least to me it was.

That's cool. i do think when she gets angry, she turns into a vampire and goes nuts, maybe, like a spoiled brat (if you want to look at that way). One could say that maybe Abby is a bit selfish too and I'll put movie Eli on that list as well. Book Eli though, I think, was a bit more like a victim of herself and Hakan. (That's why I like Book Eli more.)

Yeah she shows affection, and on this note I will say that I don't think Abby is completely uncaring to these boys, I do think there is still that part of her that is human. She's not a sociopath. But my problem is that at the point that she does kill Thomas, she's already chosen Owen. The scene prior, just before the acid burn scene, is essentially Abby and Thomas' break up scene. When Thomas askes her not to see that boy, its essentially the jealous boyfriend demanding his girlfriend not to see her best friend. Abby denies him this by pulling back from his touch, but its not a defiant teenager rebelling against her parent. Its her way of saying that she has already chosen Owen. But yet she is still willing for Thomas to go out and risk his life for her. .

I don't know if Thomas was her boyfriend, i figured he was just a friend. Not only that I think Abby and Thomas should have understood about their lifecycle. We have Thomas who became an old man and Abby who was stuck at 12. The way I seen it, she wanted someone that was her age to play with, but she's not smart when it comes to their lives such as Thomas. (I hope that made sense.) Not only that Thomas was older and probably did all things for her cause he was older and had experience such as driving cars and what not. One theory is that maybe Thomas lived with Abby who had a caretaker with her. There's not much evidence to say that he was like Owen or Oskar. For all we know, he could of been slightly changed by the former caretaker that lived with Abby at the time.

I know comparing the two films is like comparing fruit. But take the same scene in LTROI, for me that exact same scene feels more like a shady deal between Eli and Hakan. When he asks her not to see that boy, it feels like there is something at stake here, almost that Eli knows she needs Hakan for the time being. Even if she doesn't like him in particular, she still needs him. The touch felt like a hint of shadier dealings at foot. .

I agree with you there. That pat on the face could be shady and her telling Hakan in the film, "Be a good boy and do your job and you'll get your reward." Interesting that Abner made an observation about when Owen tells Abby that he stuck up for himself against Kenny, she kisses him.

I just started to loose more and more sympathy for Abby in the process. The way she treats Thomas is much more in the way of a Servant then she does if it were someone to care for her.. I know couples fight, but their fights feel more like a berating of a servant then a couple fighting. Her way of dealing with his demise is simply to move straight on, for me there was no sense of her really breaking the cycle and in some ways it almost felt like it could be any poor sap boy to fill this void for her. The cycle for her continues, and even though Owen may be happy for the short time. The sad truth is his future will be that of Thomas. A eventual life of servitude rather than that of affection or care. .

Interesting thought there. It seems that the actors, both Kodi and Chloe, had an opinion where Abby will not turn Owen into a vampire. I'm saying actors, and not the director, but if you were to ask me who says that Owen will be turned? The man himself, John Ajvide Lindvquist. Let me go back to the theory of Owen being just a servant, it goes back to what you just noticed with Abby, that she doesn't care at all about other people's lives and is too selfish to notice it. IT also seems the actors were implying it, which to me, I have to ask, "WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT??" I ask that cause there was no evidence of manipulation when I seen the movie and there is no evidence for me to say that there is manipulation.

That's one thing I liked about LMI, is that to me it's Abby's story more than Owen's cause she is getting a second chance and that second chance is owen. To me also, Thomas opened one door, and Owen opened the last door. in other words, when Abby met Thomas, even though she cared about him, she couldn't turn him. This caused a lot of problems later down on the road so they were cold to one another as the years went by.

But that's just it, there is nothing to really tell me that she will change her ways with Owen. It doesn't feel like a second chance to me. It feels like a natural progression for Abby. As I said above her time with Thomas was over before she killed him, going with Owen just seems like the natural progression in her cycle. There was nothing really there to show me she will change or have a second chance with Owen. I don't want to say your wrong in your thought, I'm just stating how I saw the movie. And why I started to lose sympathy for Abby in the process..

interesting thought there Daniel and it does seem that actors' (Kodi and Chloe) opinions were saying (maybe, I could of misread them) that Owen would be the next caretaker. Matt Reeves looked at the ending as the ending to The Graduate so for me, that's great to hear. So I'm going on his side there and JAL only. One thing you can say that if Owen asks her to be changed, and if she doesn't, then all he has to do is walk away and go back home. Better home, than Abby. Goes for movie Oskar and movie Eli. When I seen the movie for myself, especially on DVD, i took it has Abby must realize that she shouldn't make others who are trying to help her miserable. She needs to understand that people are people and they have emotions too.

I will say this though, when it came to the book, i started to think that Thomas was the first guy she met when he was 10 or 12. Her feelings for him to me were friendship in my eyes. When she was in the bed with Owen, she didn't know what going steady meant.

See this is the problem I have with BOTH films, in the long run both films really butchered the Hakan character and his intent. With Alfredson he side steps everything that should be done to paint Hakan as the true monster of the movie, whilst Reeves paints his Hakan character to be (in a weird way) one of the most sympathetic characters in the whole movie. I think both films missed the point of Hakan. Granted I let Alfredson's slide a little only because Hakan is such an enigma in that film. That and there are some of the slight pedophilic tones within that film. But in my honest opinion, I think both films screwed the pooch a little with the Hakan character.

I tell you this Daniel, when you say that about Hakan, I agree. The film did butcher the Hakan character, and I will say that it did leave unanswered questions about Thomas in LMI as well. I didn't see many pedophilic tones when saw the LTROI film, i just figured he was stalking his prey. There wasn't much on Hakan to go by when i seen the film, the only reason why i was able to figure him out though was researching the story of LTROI. I think they focused on the open ending concept too much in my opinion, especially with LMI.

Though when I first saw LMI, I figured that Abby was turned back in the 1930s and the guy that she was with was her brother so when I seen the ending of LMI, it was a happy ending. Though I never liked the fact that Abby didn't have her face shown at the time. Now I realized that it wasn't necessary cause the affection with the hand worked a lot.