Owen the Strong One

[sauvin]

On second thought, maybe he honestly believes he would gleefully murder his bullies - but from this scene, I don't get that he's totally convinced.

I don't think it that specific--more that he realizes the honest of what Eli says. That they are the same. That the thought of her killing people to live isn't really that upsetting to him--and that fact is a quantum shift in his assumptions about himself.

I'll buy that. I don't think it's quite so simple, but what in life ever is?

The poor boy is terrified, this sure seems clear enough. But tell me, is he weeping totally because he's just found out the Love of his young life is anybody's worst nightmare? Might he not also be coming to the terrifying conclusion that no matter how bad things get, he can count only on himself for guidance and for figuring things out?

Seems to me those are not mutually exclusive. Me, I see both--to some degree.

#2 The genuine way Owen freaks out as he realizes Abby is a vampire and he tries to make sense of it as well as his feelings by discussing "Evil" (or trying to), weeping as he does so.

We were talking about the latter quote supporting your position that Owen has more moral scruples. In my being irreverently flip, I'd completely ignored the possibility that Owen had indeed considered the concept of "Evil" as an abstraction to grapple with as he reviews his position vis a vis Abby, and we have no solid ground in discounting this possiblity lightly.

All I was trying to say here is that Owen's trying to talk to his father about "Evil" was an evasion, that he was really looking for indirect advice on what to do about the Abby Question. He can't very well ask him outright about vampires because, well, guess what? We found out just how closely his father listens, didn't we? Owen starts blabbing about his vampire girlfriend, Daddy starts hollering at any authority who might listen that life with Mom is considerably less than ideal, that Owen's cracking up and needs psychotherapy IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner. He'd be right, of course, but for all the wrong reasons.

Owen might be a twelve year old child, but he's very far from stupid.

"Um... Abby? Um... you know I love you, but... um... how mad would you be if I decided not to come with you when you go away? Would you... um... um... you know....?"

Funny, but I don't think so. From what we've seen of Owen and Abby together, we know they are devoted to one another. He could not let her die. She never even considered doing anything to him when he learned the truth. He wept when she left. She promised to help him--and when he needed it, she did. That has been their experience of one another. Which is one reason he doesn't scream and try to run away when he sees her draped in pieces of Kenny, Kenny's brother, Kenny's friends, etc...

And again, I was being facetious, but I did see all kinds of emotions flying past Owen's eyes at about a zillion miles an hour, and a fearful awe figured largely among them. Their devotion to each other certainly seems real enough, but I'd think Owen's personal history makes it very difficult for him to trust anybody implicitly; somewhere in the basement of his mind has to be a niggling conviction that sooner or later, this semidemonic being who'd just saved his life will sooner or later probably betray or fail him.

I'm still having trouble seeing that Owen is any stronger than Oskar. He just seems more a floating cork on a stormy sea than does Oskar to me.

[jetboy]

On what do you base your assessment of either boy's moral scruples?

#1 The scene were Eli insists she's the same as Oscar, and the look on his face as what she's saying reaches home.

Thats so strange because, I was in the middle of writing this big long post about how Eli can be looked at as manipulatve. How, like a vampire she was seducing Oskar to do her bidding. I was convinced that the film was 100% ambiguous to going both ways (Eli lying or really caring). But as I started to go through the different scenes, I stopped at when Eli said, "Be like me." I thought that was the end of my post because I thought it was Eli looking Oskar in the eyes and saying, stop pretending, death is real, not something to daydream about. Now youre saying that this is when Eli tells him that they are both murderers at heart. Thats messed up!

Not that take is wrong. Just that I get to include that in my post.

[sauvin]

On what do you base your assessment of either boy's moral scruples?

#1 The scene were Eli insists she's the same as Oscar, and the look on his face as what she's saying reaches home.

Thats so strange because, I was in the middle of writing this big long post about how Eli can be looked at as manipulatve. How, like a vampire she was seducing Oskar to do her bidding. I was convinced that the film was 100% ambiguous to going both ways (Eli lying or really caring). But as I started to go through the different scenes, I stopped at when Eli said, "Be like me." I thought that was the end of my post because I thought it was Eli looking Oskar in the eyes and saying, stop pretending, death is real, not something to daydream about. Now youre saying that this is when Eli tells him that they are both murderers at heart. Thats messed up!

How is it "messed up"? Eli was being nothing short of brutally truthful when she said that Oskar was also a latent murderer. Wasn't much of a stretch of the imagination, given that the very first time she saw him, he'd been busy bullying a tree with a knife big enough to disembowel a polar bear and pretending it was an actual person, and he'd told her since he'd been continually tormented by some of the other kids in his school. She had to have known he carried the knife under his coat most of the time.

It was even less of a stretch of the imagination because Eli's two centuries has certainly taught her that most people - maybe even all people - will kill if properly motivated. Mothers will kill to protect their children, thieves sometimes kill for the price of a cup of coffee. War is everywhere, always has been, always will be, and at least one of the more recent ones she'd had to have known about was particularly bloodthirsty.

She may have been talking to Oskar directly, and she may even have been knowingly taking a wild shot in the dark, but she had to have been confident this particular shot would hit close enough to its mark to make an impression, and she had to have known just how broadly her accusation could be cast.

[DavidZahir]

I'm still having trouble seeing that Owen is any stronger than Oskar. He just seems more a floating cork on a stormy sea than does Oskar to me.

I'd use a slightly different metaphor.

Both are trying to stay afloat and survive in a storm. Oscar's storm is a little less fierce, and has a (not very good) life preserver. So he's able to at least try to head for land. Owen's storm is more tumultuous, and he lacks anything to help him stay afloat--so keeping from drowning is all he can manage. In this he at least demonstrates greater strength, imho. Perhaps in the same circumstances Oscar would do as much, or more, or less. We cannot really know. All I'm claiming is that Owen seems to show greater strength in enduring and coping with what he endures than does Oscar--in part because frankly he has more stuff to endure.

[sauvin]

I'm still having trouble seeing that Owen is any stronger than Oskar. He just seems more a floating cork on a stormy sea than does Oskar to me.

I'd use a slightly different metaphor.

Both are trying to stay afloat and survive in a storm. Oscar's storm is a little less fierce, and has a (not very good) life preserver. So he's able to at least try to head for land. Owen's storm is more tumultuous, and he lacks anything to help him stay afloat--so keeping from drowning is all he can manage. In this he at least demonstrates greater strength, imho. Perhaps in the same circumstances Oscar would do as much, or more, or less. We cannot really know. All I'm claiming is that Owen seems to show greater strength in enduring and coping with what he endures than does Oscar--in part because frankly he has more stuff to endure.

I think I see, now - a kind of toughness in the face of adversity?

[TigerEyes]

I'm still having trouble seeing that Owen is any stronger than Oskar. He just seems more a floating cork on a stormy sea than does Oskar to me.

I'd use a slightly different metaphor.

Both are trying to stay afloat and survive in a storm. Oscar's storm is a little less fierce, and has a (not very good) life preserver. So he's able to at least try to head for land. Owen's storm is more tumultuous, and he lacks anything to help him stay afloat--so keeping from drowning is all he can manage. In this he at least demonstrates greater strength, imho. Perhaps in the same circumstances Oscar would do as much, or more, or less. We cannot really know. All I'm claiming is that Owen seems to show greater strength in enduring and coping with what he endures than does Oscar--in part because frankly he has more stuff to endure.

Well, it's hard to say because both Oskar and Owen were mant to represent the Oskar in the book. Tomas and John decided to tone things down a bit. Matt Reeves decides, "I'll make Owen's life more difficult." I can't argue against you, but i think the strength of these boys are different, yet both are strong. Like one is bottling up his fustration against his bullies, another is pouring it out slowly. I see Owen as someone who expresses his emotions and Oskar who bottles it up. Which is why Owen looks for a way while Oskar resides to his fate, feeling defeated.

I keep things bottled up sometimes, but i pour it out in writing on my laptop. Much like Oskar who bottles it up when bullies bully him, and stabs the tree. What i'm saying is, Owen is very emotional, Oskar is hardening himself. But they both have my sympathy and neither is stronger than another. Again, i get what you were saying, but they both are to represent the Oskar in the book. I just think that hardening your heart isn't something that is bad. I feel difficult to express my feelings the way Owen does and feel that no one sees me. This is why i connect more closely to Oskar. We're all falling into the crack. Oskar isn't having it easy despite how it looks on the film. The director and the author just toned it down a bit.

[lombano]

I'm uncionvinced by arguments that Owen shows greater strength than Oskar, at least as far as leaving with Abby is concerned. Yes, a future with Abby would seem darker than Oskar's future with Eli, but also precisely because the life he was fleeing was worse, was it really a tougher decision? In both cases the decision can be regarded as choosing the lesser evil, and the key to how difficult the choice is is not how bad the evil chosen is, but how different it is from the other alternative. There is more here to it than Owen's life being worse; like Tommy but unlike Oskar he loathes his town/suburb in and of itself, not just the life he leads in it. Also, there's the issue that Abby killed a cop, unlike Eli; there is no indication of it, but neither is it particularly outlandish to imagine that he would expect rather worse trouble from the authorities if he stayed and they put two and two together regarding the dead cop and the other killings, a crime that may seem to him all the graver because the cop, unlike Lacke, wasn't actually trying to kill the killer. Owen may well have concluded that it was unrealistic to stay, however dark his future with Abby might be.
Also, there's Owen's submissiveness - film Oskar is not as devious and passive-aggressive as book Oskar, but neither one is submissive. In this the key scene is to me the whipping scene - Oskar makes up an accident to avoid dealing with his mother's reaction, Owen simply obeys the bully's command. That is hardly an indication that Owen is the stronger character, even if he faces worse circumstances.
Another point is the tree-stabbing scene - in Owen's case it seems basicallly just an outburst, in Oskar's case it's far more deliberate, calm. Oskar is more in control so that, even if his circumstances are not as bad, he nevertheless shows more mastery over himself.

[TigerEyes]

I'm uncionvinced by arguments that Owen shows greater strength than Oskar, at least as far as leaving with Abby is concerned. Yes, a future with Abby would seem darker than Oskar's future with Eli, but also precisely because the life he was fleeing was worse, was it really a tougher decision? In both cases the decision can be regarded as choosing the lesser evil, and the key to how difficult the choice is is not how bad the evil chosen is, but how different it is from the other alternative. There is more here to it than Owen's life being worse; like Tommy but unlike Oskar he loathes his town/suburb in and of itself, not just the life he leads in it. Also, there's the issue that Abby killed a cop, unlike Eli; there is no indication of it, but neither is it particularly outlandish to imagine that he would expect rather worse trouble from the authorities if he stayed and they put two and two together regarding the dead cop and the other killings, a crime that may seem to him all the graver because the cop, unlike Lacke, wasn't actually trying to kill the killer. Owen may well have concluded that it was unrealistic to stay, however dark his future with Abby might be.
Also, there's Owen's submissiveness - film Oskar is not as devious and passive-aggressive as book Oskar, but neither one is submissive. In this the key scene is to me the whipping scene - Oskar makes up an accident to avoid dealing with his mother's reaction, Owen simply obeys the bully's command. That is hardly an indication that Owen is the stronger character, even if he faces worse circumstances.
Another point is the tree-stabbing scene - in Owen's case it seems basicallly just an outburst, in Oskar's case it's far more deliberate, calm. Oskar is more in control so that, even if his circumstances are not as bad, he nevertheless shows more mastery over himself.

Exactly! I quite agree. If i sounded a bit different, i apologize, this is what i meant to convey. You nailed it.

[TigerEyes]

i may also would like to point out that like Lombano said, the tree stabbing by Oskar was calm and focused. He's building himself a strength as well as a shell to protect himself against bullies. he wanted to become stronger, like any bullied kid does. Owen, as i said, is emotional and his treatment to the tree is simply an outburst and anger. And for the whipping, like lombano said, Oskar decides to make up a lie while Owen comply to the bully's request that he lie to his mother. Those two scenes indicates that Owen is not stronger than Osker.

[sauvin]

Looks like we might want to clarify what we mean by "strength".