Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

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metoo
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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by metoo » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:10 pm

OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:20 pm
if Eli and Oskar did in fact not plan to meet each other again I don't think its because the only way to live with Eli is to be a vampire. we have proof of this because Hakan lived with Eli and while he did die it was because he was trying to feed her, and Eli would not make Oskar do something like that since he actually cares for him. the lifestyle Oskar would have to chose (and did chose) would be a life on the run but I also don't think this would be the reason they went there separate ways. what I think is the most likely reason is that Eli knows all to well what immortality really means and he did not want to live with Oskar watching him grow old while he would forever be stuck at age 12.
Well, I don't think you can take Håkan as proof that Oskar would manage. Oskar and Eli would live under quite different conditions than Håkan and Eli did. Just consider shelter. While Håkan as an adult was able to rent decent apartments for them (three times), Oskar would hardly be. And neither would Eli. Not realistically, notwithstanding how easy it is for them do do this in some of the fan fiction here. Think about it: what landlord would even take a twelve year old caller on an apartment ad seriously? Besides, a child cannot make a legal agreement, which the very majority of landlords would require.

Eli's need for help after his long rest periods would also create a great obstacle. An unturned Oskar would be of little use in this respect for several years, so Eli would have to enlist an adult helper in the meanwhile. And he would have to expose Oskar to that person. I don't think he would want to. Therefore, also for this reason Oskar would have to be a vampire.

But all this said, I think you offered the decisive reason why Oskar would need to be turned if he was to live with Eli. He wouldn't remain the same person for long otherwise, they would grow apart. Eli would know as much, perhaps from personal experience, and Oskar would understand it too, at least conceptually.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by metoo » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:47 pm

OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:59 pm
Whatever the reason why Oskar kept almost everything while Eli took so little is I believe it was planed. in the end there are small time skips in the chapter the one im talking about right now is when Oskar sat down and started humming after saving Eli up to the point where Eli is taking a shower and Oskar is throwing the box's on his balcony. As we know with Eli he is gross and I don't think he would have taken a shower until Oskar told him to ...
I disagree slightly. By that time Eli would have learned that Oskar preferred him not gross, so he would have showered on his own initiative.
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:59 pm
... and I also don't think Oskar would just take the box's with out talking to Eli first. So in between the time Eli got in the shower and Oskar started taking Eli's things they talked.
I agree, Oskar wouldn't have taken the boxes without Eli's consent. They certainly talked before Eli had his shower and then they decided about the boxes.
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:59 pm
[...] If we go with Eli just waiting for things to just blow over it would explain how he was able to pull of his timely rescue at the pool. Eli watching Oskar secretly at night while waiting for the perfect moment to meet him and leave.
There is no need invent complicated schemes to explain why Eli could arrive just in time. Chance is a sufficient explanation. That, and the author's desire to make it so. ;)

Now, I think we can agree that Oskar was convinced that Eli had left for good. His reaction is proof of that. This is sufficient to make me reject the idea of Eli remaining in Blackeberg. Why would he do such a thing? Aside from being very dangerous, it would be hard for himself, and cruel to Oskar. He wouldn't want either.
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:59 pm
as always I would love to hear your feedback on this and let me know if you see any loop hols in my reasoning.
You're welcome - and I will...
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by OskarTheArsonist » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm

metoo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:10 pm
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:20 pm
if Eli and Oskar did in fact not plan to meet each other again I don't think its because the only way to live with Eli is to be a vampire. we have proof of this because Hakan lived with Eli and while he did die it was because he was trying to feed her, and Eli would not make Oskar do something like that since he actually cares for him. the lifestyle Oskar would have to chose (and did chose) would be a life on the run but I also don't think this would be the reason they went there separate ways. what I think is the most likely reason is that Eli knows all to well what immortality really means and he did not want to live with Oskar watching him grow old while he would forever be stuck at age 12.
Well, I don't think you can take Håkan as proof that Oskar would manage. Oskar and Eli would live under quite different conditions than Håkan and Eli did. Just consider shelter. While Håkan as an adult was able to rent decent apartments for them (three times), Oskar would hardly be. And neither would Eli. Not realistically, notwithstanding how easy it is for them do do this in some of the fan fiction here. Think about it: what landlord would even take a twelve year old caller on an apartment ad seriously? Besides, a child cannot make a legal agreement, which the very majority of landlords would require.

Eli's need for help after his long rest periods would also create a great obstacle. An unturned Oskar would be of little use in this respect for several years, so Eli would have to enlist an adult helper in the meanwhile. And he would have to expose Oskar to that person. I don't think he would want to. Therefore, also for this reason Oskar would have to be a vampire.

But all this said, I think you offered the decisive reason why Oskar would need to be turned if he was to live with Eli. He wouldn't remain the same person for long otherwise, they would grow apart. Eli would know as much, perhaps from personal experience, and Oskar would understand it too, at least conceptually.
lol I did not even think about how they would rent an apartment XD. and about the long rest period Eli said it was just something he dose. I know this is kind of a stretch but I like to think that Eli goes into hibernation because he was depressed and lonely. I think all Vampires have the ability to hibernate whenever they need to and if they are sufficiently well feed. So Eli post living with Oskar would just keep building up to the point where he can just go and sleep for a few month, all to have to start over once he woke up after the hibernation. also now that I think about it how do you think Oskar and Eli buy things like apartments now?
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by OskarTheArsonist » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:17 pm

metoo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:47 pm
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:59 pm
Whatever the reason why Oskar kept almost everything while Eli took so little is I believe it was planed. in the end there are small time skips in the chapter the one im talking about right now is when Oskar sat down and started humming after saving Eli up to the point where Eli is taking a shower and Oskar is throwing the box's on his balcony. As we know with Eli he is gross and I don't think he would have taken a shower until Oskar told him to ...
I disagree slightly. By that time Eli would have learned that Oskar preferred him not gross, so he would have showered on his own initiative.
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:59 pm
... and I also don't think Oskar would just take the box's with out talking to Eli first. So in between the time Eli got in the shower and Oskar started taking Eli's things they talked.
I agree, Oskar wouldn't have taken the boxes without Eli's consent. They certainly talked before Eli had his shower and then they decided about the boxes.
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:59 pm
[...] If we go with Eli just waiting for things to just blow over it would explain how he was able to pull of his timely rescue at the pool. Eli watching Oskar secretly at night while waiting for the perfect moment to meet him and leave.
There is no need invent complicated schemes to explain why Eli could arrive just in time. Chance is a sufficient explanation. That, and the author's desire to make it so. ;)

Now, I think we can agree that Oskar was convinced that Eli had left for good. His reaction is proof of that. This is sufficient to make me reject the idea of Eli remaining in Blackeberg. Why would he do such a thing? Aside from being very dangerous, it would be hard for himself, and cruel to Oskar. He wouldn't want either.
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:59 pm
as always I would love to hear your feedback on this and let me know if you see any loop hols in my reasoning.
You're welcome - and I will...
I actually disagree with you on it just being chance. Technically it could just be chance since in LTROI JAL is god but I personally think that type of writing is lazy.I think there is a more complicated reason why Eli was able to be there to save Oscar and where just not able to see it yet. :)
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by metoo » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:56 pm

OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm
lol I did not even think about how they would rent an apartment XD. and about the long rest period Eli said it was just something he dose. I know this is kind of a stretch but I like to think that Eli goes into hibernation because he was depressed and lonely. I think all Vampires have the ability to hibernate whenever they need to and if they are sufficiently well feed. So Eli post living with Oskar would just keep building up to the point where he can just go and sleep for a few month, all to have to start over once he woke up after the hibernation. also now that I think about it how do you think Oskar and Eli buy things like apartments now?
Regarding hibernation: That vampires hibernate occasionally to cure depression apparently is common vampire lore. However, the way Eli tells about his hibernation periods makes it sound involuntary and part of his nature. Something that just happen. “It’s like that for me, anyway.”

About renting apartments: I don’t know why people insist on Eli and Oskar living in apartments. They wouldn’t need to, and therefore wouldn’t bother to, I think. And since Eli didn’t buy things, generally, and Oskar wasn’t shy of stealing things he couldn’t afford already before running away with Eli, I can’t see why they would trouble themselves with buying stuff. They wouldn’t need much anyway. The only thing they would buy would be train tickets, I think.
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:17 pm
I actually disagree with you on it just being chance. Technically it could just be chance since in LTROI JAL is god but I personally think that type of writing is lazy.I think there is a more complicated reason why Eli was able to be there to save Oscar and where just not able to see it yet. :)
Ok, then we can at least agree that we disagree on this particular matter! However, I do disagree that it would be lazy not explicitly explaining everything. Rather, it sets the reader’s imagination going. These omissions make you think, and that is a good thing.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by OskarTheArsonist » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:44 pm

metoo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:56 pm
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm
lol I did not even think about how they would rent an apartment XD. and about the long rest period Eli said it was just something he dose. I know this is kind of a stretch but I like to think that Eli goes into hibernation because he was depressed and lonely. I think all Vampires have the ability to hibernate whenever they need to and if they are sufficiently well feed. So Eli post living with Oskar would just keep building up to the point where he can just go and sleep for a few month, all to have to start over once he woke up after the hibernation. also now that I think about it how do you think Oskar and Eli buy things like apartments now?
Regarding hibernation: That vampires hibernate occasionally to cure depression apparently is common vampire lore. However, the way Eli tells about his hibernation periods makes it sound involuntary and part of his nature. Something that just happen. “It’s like that for me, anyway.”

About renting apartments: I don’t know why people insist on Eli and Oskar living in apartments. They wouldn’t need to, and therefore wouldn’t bother to, I think. And since Eli didn’t buy things, generally, and Oskar wasn’t shy of stealing things he couldn’t afford already before running away with Eli, I can’t see why they would trouble themselves with buying stuff. They wouldn’t need much anyway. The only thing they would buy would be train tickets, I think.
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:17 pm
I actually disagree with you on it just being chance. Technically it could just be chance since in LTROI JAL is god but I personally think that type of writing is lazy.I think there is a more complicated reason why Eli was able to be there to save Oscar and where just not able to see it yet. :)
Ok, then we can at least agree that we disagree on this particular matter! However, I do disagree that it would be lazy not explicitly explaining everything. Rather, it sets the reader’s imagination going. These omissions make you think, and that is a good thing.
Yes as long as it stays an omission and not turn into a confirmed coincidence then it is not lazy.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by metoo » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:05 am

OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:44 pm
Yes as long as it stays an omission and not turn into a confirmed coincidence then it is not lazy.
Well, strange coincidences happen all the time in real life. Still, they are mere coincidences. So why not in fiction? That actually makes the fiction all the more realistic, in my opinion. Furthermore, writing that way is definitely not lazy, but takes an effort. As an author you need to suppress the urge to explain everything in order to stay in focus and write about the important things.

About this particular coincidence, and why it may not be as strange as one might think:

Consider that Eli probably was experiencing something similar to Oskar after having split. That seems likely, doesn't it?

Now, consider that Eli at some point in time decided to turn back to Oskar, perhaps without any plans of what to do when there, but just because his depression had grown unbearable. That's also likely, right?

Now, is any one particular point in time for Eli's departure more likely than any other?

No, not really. That evening was perhaps more likely than the one before, but the minute or even the hour wouldn't have mattered. Any time that night would have been just as likely. Therefore, Eli's arrival at the bath house just when Jimmy was about to poke Oskar's eye out was purely coincidental. That's the simplest explanation, and it reflects real life very well.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by sauvin » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:23 am

metoo wrote: Consider that Eli probably was experiencing something similar to Oskar after having split. That seems likely, doesn't it?

Now, consider that Eli at some point in time decided to turn back to Oskar, perhaps without any plans of what to do when there, but just because his depression had grown unbearable. That's also likely, right?
"Why can't I have anything?"

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metoo wrote: No, not really. That evening was perhaps more likely than the one before, but the minute or even the hour wouldn't have mattered. Any time that night would have been just as likely. Therefore, Eli's arrival at the bath house just when Jimmy was about to poke Oskar's eye out was purely coincidental. That's the simplest explanation, and it reflects real life very well.
Just a little bit too much coincidence, honestly. I think Eli seriously did jump into a cab, went as far as she could go and hung out for a while. More she hung out, more she realised that life just wasn't the same, and decided to drift back. Maybe she dragged her feet getting back, maybe she dragged her feet while she was peering in through the bathhouse's windows wondering what she wanted to do and how to do it.

In one of my fanfics, I'd suggested that she'd already had a plan before she jumped into the cab, but didn't say anything just in case things didn't pan out. Also, just how much can you trust a twelve year old boy to keep his mouth shut? She'd wandered away, poked around a bit, made some arrangements so when she came back, she could have spent a night or two discussing options with Oskar. She'd have been ready to make sure she could take care of him if he'd decide to run off with her.

In any event, she'd come back to Blackeberg, and had risen to go look for him just as soon as the setting sun would allow. She didn't arrive "just in the nick of time", I think, she'd been outside the bathhouse watching the situation develop, and exploded into the room as soon as she realised this wasn't just kids getting a little rough.
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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by metoo » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:27 am

sauvin wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:23 am
Just a little bit too much coincidence, honestly.
That's usually what people think, and then they start looking for explanations. Clairvoyance, God's providence, whatever their inclination...
sauvin wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:23 am
I think Eli seriously did jump into a cab, went as far as she could go and hung out for a while. More she hung out, more she realised that life just wasn't the same, and decided to drift back. Maybe she dragged her feet getting back, maybe she dragged her feet while she was peering in through the bathhouse's windows wondering what she wanted to do and how to do it.

In one of my fanfics, I'd suggested that she'd already had a plan before she jumped into the cab, but didn't say anything just in case things didn't pan out. Also, just how much can you trust a twelve year old boy to keep his mouth shut? She'd wandered away, poked around a bit, made some arrangements so when she came back, she could have spent a night or two discussing options with Oskar. She'd have been ready to make sure she could take care of him if he'd decide to run off with her.

In any event, she'd come back to Blackeberg, and had risen to go look for him just as soon as the setting sun would allow. She didn't arrive "just in the nick of time", I think, she'd been outside the bathhouse watching the situation develop, and exploded into the room as soon as she realised this wasn't just kids getting a little rough.
Well, your scenario with Eli waiting outside appears to be contradicted by the novel:

Oskar hann bara ta ett halvt andetag innan hans huvud trycktes under vattnet.
[...]
Efter två minuter började Micke känna sig jävligt olustig.
[...]
I ögonvrån tyckte han [Micke] sig se hur nånting föll från taket utanför. Det började bulta på glasdörren så den skakade i sina fästen.
Han lyfte sig på tå, kikade ut genom fönstret av vanligt glas som satt högst upp och såg en liten flicka. Flickan lyfte sitt ansikte mot hans.
"Säg Kom in!"


Oskar had only time to take half a breath before his head was pushed under the water.
[...]
After two minutes Micke began to feel terribly uncomfortable.
[...]
In the corner of his eye he [Micke] thought he saw something falling from the ceiling outside. It started to pound on the glass door so it shook in its hinges.
He raised on his toes, looked out through the window of plain glass that was on top and saw a little girl. The girl lifted her face towards his.
"Say come in!"
Google's interpretation edited by me.

I cannot think that Eli would have waited for two minutes while Jimmy was holding Oskar's head submerged, before going into action. If he had been there looking on, he would had reacted as soon as Jimmy produced his stiletto, I think. If he was there but didn't look all the time, he still took that crucial look in the nick of time. That wouldn't change much.

However, the fact that Eli still had his wing membranes in my opinion contradicts any early arrival scenario. Wouldn't he have ungrown them while waiting for Oskar to come out? He didn't want to appear as a freak to Oskar (I'm no circus monster!), and wings certainly would have appeared freakish.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by OskarTheArsonist » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:17 am

metoo wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:05 am
OskarTheArsonist wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:44 pm
Yes as long as it stays an omission and not turn into a confirmed coincidence then it is not lazy.
Well, strange coincidences happen all the time in real life. Still, they are mere coincidences. So why not in fiction? That actually makes the fiction all the more realistic, in my opinion. Furthermore, writing that way is definitely not lazy, but takes an effort. As an author you need to suppress the urge to explain everything in order to stay in focus and write about the important things.

About this particular coincidence, and why it may not be as strange as one might think:

Consider that Eli probably was experiencing something similar to Oskar after having split. That seems likely, doesn't it?

Now, consider that Eli at some point in time decided to turn back to Oskar, perhaps without any plans of what to do when there, but just because his depression had grown unbearable. That's also likely, right?

Now, is any one particular point in time for Eli's departure more likely than any other?

No, not really. That evening was perhaps more likely than the one before, but the minute or even the hour wouldn't have mattered. Any time that night would have been just as likely. Therefore, Eli's arrival at the bath house just when Jimmy was about to poke Oskar's eye out was purely coincidental. That's the simplest explanation, and it reflects real life very well.
I just think that its a little to convenient that Eli not only chose that night to visit Oskar but then arrive right when Oskar was about to lose an eye. I am happy to agree to disagree on this one topic thou. At the end of the day weather it was coincidence or not dose not change the fact that LTROI is the best book of all time (in my opinion).
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"

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