Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

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OskarTheArsonist
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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by OskarTheArsonist » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:27 am

sauvin wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:23 am
metoo wrote: Consider that Eli probably was experiencing something similar to Oskar after having split. That seems likely, doesn't it?

Now, consider that Eli at some point in time decided to turn back to Oskar, perhaps without any plans of what to do when there, but just because his depression had grown unbearable. That's also likely, right?
"Why can't I have anything?"

(because you should be dead)

metoo wrote: No, not really. That evening was perhaps more likely than the one before, but the minute or even the hour wouldn't have mattered. Any time that night would have been just as likely. Therefore, Eli's arrival at the bath house just when Jimmy was about to poke Oskar's eye out was purely coincidental. That's the simplest explanation, and it reflects real life very well.
Just a little bit too much coincidence, honestly. I think Eli seriously did jump into a cab, went as far as she could go and hung out for a while. More she hung out, more she realised that life just wasn't the same, and decided to drift back. Maybe she dragged her feet getting back, maybe she dragged her feet while she was peering in through the bathhouse's windows wondering what she wanted to do and how to do it.

In one of my fanfics, I'd suggested that she'd already had a plan before she jumped into the cab, but didn't say anything just in case things didn't pan out. Also, just how much can you trust a twelve year old boy to keep his mouth shut? She'd wandered away, poked around a bit, made some arrangements so when she came back, she could have spent a night or two discussing options with Oskar. She'd have been ready to make sure she could take care of him if he'd decide to run off with her.

In any event, she'd come back to Blackeberg, and had risen to go look for him just as soon as the setting sun would allow. She didn't arrive "just in the nick of time", I think, she'd been outside the bathhouse watching the situation develop, and exploded into the room as soon as she realised this wasn't just kids getting a little rough.
Even thou Oskar is only 12 I think Eli still fully trusted Oskar. Once Oskar found out about Eli's "disease" I did not pick up the slightest hint that Eli was worried that Oskar would endanger him only that he was afraid that Oskar would no longer like him. Then once Oskar saved Eli from Lacke It just strengthened there trust and love for each other.
"the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear"

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by metoo » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:18 am

sauvin wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:23 am
In one of my fanfics, I'd suggested that she'd already had a plan before she jumped into the cab, but didn't say anything just in case things didn't pan out. Also, just how much can you trust a twelve year old boy to keep his mouth shut? She'd wandered away, poked around a bit, made some arrangements so when she came back, she could have spent a night or two discussing options with Oskar. She'd have been ready to make sure she could take care of him if he'd decide to run off with her.
I just read through this a second time, and it dawned to me what I dislike with this scenario.

It is based on the idea that Eli had plans to return to persuade Oskar to run away with him, but didn't tell Oskar about it. As you say yourself, not telling is a lack of trust on Eli's part vis-à-vis Oskar.

But having these plans at all is a lack of respect of Oskar's wishes, I think. Eli had asked Oskar about "becoming like me" and Oskar had rejected it. Eli was very aware of what kind of life Oskar would have to live as turned, and accepted that Oskar wasn't willing to do that. I also don't think that Eli would have considered running away with an unturned Oskar. It wouldn't work, for many reasons that Eli would have been aware of.

I think this is out of character of the Eli I see in the novel. He would respect Oskar and not be persistent about running away with him, and he would trust Oskar to keep a secret. After all, he already did trust Oskar to keep a very much more important secret, that is Eli's very existence, so why not this other one?
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by sauvin » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:21 am

metoo wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:18 am
sauvin wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:23 am
In one of my fanfics, I'd suggested that she'd already had a plan before she jumped into the cab, but didn't say anything just in case things didn't pan out. Also, just how much can you trust a twelve year old boy to keep his mouth shut? She'd wandered away, poked around a bit, made some arrangements so when she came back, she could have spent a night or two discussing options with Oskar. She'd have been ready to make sure she could take care of him if he'd decide to run off with her.
I just read through this a second time, and it dawned to me what I dislike with this scenario.

It is based on the idea that Eli had plans to return to persuade Oskar to run away with him, but didn't tell Oskar about it. As you say yourself, not telling is a lack of trust on Eli's part vis-à-vis Oskar.

But having these plans at all is a lack of respect of Oskar's wishes, I think. Eli had asked Oskar about "becoming like me" and Oskar had rejected it. Eli was very aware of what kind of life Oskar would have to live as turned, and accepted that Oskar wasn't willing to do that. I also don't think that Eli would have considered running away with an unturned Oskar. It wouldn't work, for many reasons that Eli would have been aware of.

I think this is out of character of the Eli I see in the novel. He would respect Oskar and not be persistent about running away with him, and he would trust Oskar to keep a secret. After all, he already did trust Oskar to keep a very much more important secret, that is Eli's very existence, so why not this other one?
All of this is perfectly logical and coherent to the adult mind, but I think we lose sight of the fact that she's really only twelve years old. She loves him, she respects him, she trusts him, but she's also a twelve year old who knows more about the true darkness that hides in the night than any man (or woman) could ever hope to (not) learn, and she's shown that she can be impulsive, spontaneous and mentally agile. Paradox might bake our noodles, but to her, it's just "a little strange", and I've seen no evidence that she can really plan beyond this coming Tuesday.

It seems certain that she went away, found life unbearable, and turned back around. It's not completely implausible that the mere prospect of facing all her tomorrows without him was already more than she could handle before she even clambered into the taxicab. If she'd already had a plan to make plans while she was away, it wouldn't be incredible for a very young person engineering a near-term solution to a problem whose true extents aren't immediately apparent, figuring she'll just deal with new crap as it arises. I don't say that she came back with the purpose of whisking him away against his will, I just posit the possibility that she'd returned in order to discuss it with him... or even just to beg in her wooden Eli-like way.

It's not necessarily distrust that'd motivate her to say nothing until she'd gotten all her ducks in a row. What we're not really factoring in so far is her very long experience as an apex predator who survives by feeding on the most dangerous animal on the planet. Impulsive child as she might be, you don't live to be a substantial chunk of a millennium if you're irredeemably stupid.
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Re: Was Oskar and Eli planing on leaving or was it spontaneous?

Post by metoo » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:48 pm

sauvin wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:21 am
All of this is perfectly logical and coherent to the adult mind, but I think we lose sight of the fact that she's really only twelve years old. She loves him, she respects him, she trusts him, but she's also a twelve year old who knows more about the true darkness that hides in the night than any man (or woman) could ever hope to (not) learn, and she's shown that she can be impulsive, spontaneous and mentally agile. Paradox might bake our noodles, but to her, it's just "a little strange", and I've seen no evidence that she can really plan beyond this coming Tuesday.
That might be because you have read the novel only once, and forgotten most of it (as you often confess). ;)
But in the novel Eli does actually plan for the future. Once at least, when he stuffs that small piece of paper into the basement lock, thereby giving him future access to Tommy and his buddies.
sauvin wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:21 am
It seems certain that she went away, found life unbearable, and turned back around.
We apparently completely agree on this, at least!
sauvin wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:21 am
It's not completely implausible that the mere prospect of facing all her tomorrows without him was already more than she could handle before she even clambered into the taxicab. If she'd already had a plan to make plans while she was away, it wouldn't be incredible for a very young person engineering a near-term solution to a problem whose true extents aren't immediately apparent, figuring she'll just deal with new crap as it arises. I don't say that she came back with the purpose of whisking him away against his will, I just posit the possibility that she'd returned in order to discuss it with him... or even just to beg in her wooden Eli-like way.

It's not necessarily distrust that'd motivate her to say nothing until she'd gotten all her ducks in a row. What we're not really factoring in so far is her very long experience as an apex predator who survives by feeding on the most dangerous animal on the planet. Impulsive child as she might be, you don't live to be a substantial chunk of a millennium if you're irredeemably stupid.
Yes, well. As I said before, Eli had already trusted Oskar with his greatest secret, so why start being fussy about the little things now? But my main objection is that I cannot see Eli fooling Oskar in such a cruel way. He must have realised what feelings Oskar had for him. Why then not give Oskar some hope of meeting (soon) again, if that was his intention?

Then there is the kiss Eli gave Oskar under the balcony. That scene really gives a very strong impression of a final goodbye. I cannot think that Eli would be dishonest in that situation, and already have plans for a return.

However, Eli might have harboured such hopes when he decided to return. Perhaps not explicitly formulated, he might not have dared to, given Oskar's earlier rejection. Still, the possibility might have lived there like a flickering light in the darkness of his depression, back in the farthest corner of his mind. But I still think that he also might have considered greeting the sun in some desolate place the next morning. Neither thought necessarily excludes the other. I think Eli's feelings and thoughts would have been very complex and confused as he was heading back.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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