Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

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ltroifanatic
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Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by ltroifanatic » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:18 am

One of the great things about this beautiful story is about the purity of love that Eli and Oskar have for each other.Unincumbered by sex or gender.One of my favourite quotes is when Oskar dismisses his doubts and thinks "yes.A boy.My friend".Eli on the other hand is 220 years old and seems to know more about sex than Oskar.Although Eli's confused about love (adult love) when she talks to Hakan but still tells him he can touch but "not that" and also seems to know the mechanics of it when they (Oscar and Eli) laugh about the man in the kiosk and his lady friends.I'm hoping that as Eli is 12 he knows about it but thinks (as 12 year olds think) that its sorta of yucky and a bit disgusting.Your thoughts?..I hope I'm right.I don't want their beautiful relationship marred by sex.Thats why (for me) the little story of Oskar being infected in LTODD is so satisfying.They both stay the same caring loyal lovers forever.

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Re: Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by intrige » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:56 am

Hello!
I like that bit of the story too, but for different reasons. Consensual sex between two humans of any gender or age to me is not impure. (The obvious not adult and child under 16 etc)But rather, since now a days sex seems to be the manifestation of intimacy and closeness in the media, as well as something to objectify, it is refreshing to see a deep and loving and meaningful relationship with no sex. Even no gender, which is a step further. If Oskar and Eli chose to have sex they would still have gone through hell and back together. Their relationship would be the same, maybe only a tad bit more close to us sexual adult's understanding of intimacy and partnership.

I have talked about this before.. I can't seem to remember exactly where. Oh well.
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Re: Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by gkmoberg1 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:43 pm

It is important that they are at the same stage of development. If one or the other were older, by as little as a year or two, things would be different and that potential of remaining 'caring loyal lovers forever' would be at risk.

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Re: Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by dongregg » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:00 pm

gkmoberg1 wrote:It is important that they are at the same stage of development. If one or the other were older, by as little as a year or two, things would be different and that potential of remaining 'caring loyal lovers forever' would be at risk.
Having not read the book yet (Hey, it's only been just under three years since I first saw the film), I am content to get tidbits of booky facts from here. Is it true that Elias is presented as experienced in that he was involved with adults and had to deal with what they wanted from him? Or is this just dirty-minded forum members reading between the lines?

Whatever. Developmentally, puberty came very late to children of both genders until the 20th century (nutrition?) began pushing the age dramatically lower.

So, even though they are both 12, Oskar is likely to be at least two years closer to puberty than Elias was.

As for their differences in height (I mean in the film, of course) -- oh, never mind. I don't know anything about how the book portrays them. I'm stuck with images of 12-year-old Kåre and LIna.

Anyway, GK's point is well taken -- The key to the relationship is that they are prepubescent. Since they have not experienced the testosterone poisoning that turns good little boys into out-of-control apes, what we see (or read) is the way that Oskar and Eli will remain.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by Drakeule » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:04 pm

dongregg wrote: Is it true that Elias is presented as experienced in that he was involved with adults and had to deal with what they wanted from him? Or is this just dirty-minded forum members reading between the lines?
There are no detailed acts of sex from Eli's past. Just he did what it took. As much as he draws the line with Håkan, I'd assume he drew the line elsewhere.

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Re: Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by dongregg » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:57 pm

Thanks!
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by metoo » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:04 pm

dongregg wrote:Is it true that Elias is presented as experienced in that he was involved with adults and had to deal with what they wanted from him? Or is this just dirty-minded forum members reading between the lines?
Like Drakuele says, there are no detailed acts of sex from Eli's past in the novel. But Eli's reaction when Oskar asked to "go steady" implies that he was familiar with sex in a way that Oskar certainly wasn't. Eli appears to rather quickly jump to a certain - albeit false - conclusion about Oskar's intentions, and it does take some talking before he realises how innocent Oskar's request really was.

Another hint about Eli's earlier experience with adult sexuality is his thoughts and reaction when zombie Håkan began to masturbate:
"All this. To get to jerk off." My translation.
Then Eli started to laugh. Apparently he was familiar with the vocabulary, and with the activity as well.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by dongregg » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:06 am

I have an insert that will go somewhere in my story where Eli keeps some parts of her relationship with Håkan a secret from Oskar. All she will tell Oskar is that "nothing happened," but with her fingers crossed because she feels that Håkan's intentions were enough to make her feel dirty, and like seeing her dressing. I think I'll put in that he held Eli. Canonical? "But nothing happened, Oskar."

By the way, I've shown a little of Eli's potential for jealousy. I'd like to bring it out in a scene when Oskar has a chance to interact with a girl his age, such as at the amateur theater where they will soon begin hanging out. Look out! I haven't shown Eli really get mad yet. I hope I can do it justice. :)
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by metoo » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:43 am

dongregg wrote:By the way, I've shown a little of Eli's potential for jealousy.
Hmm...
Jealousy is based on lack of trust, I think. Doesn't your Eli completely trust Oskar?

But the issue should be investigated, so go head!
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Eli's worldliness (spoiler)

Post by dongregg » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:21 am

Lack of trust is about right. I'm inclined to believe that love carries equal amounts of hope and insecurity. There is also the fear of betrayal, that the beloved is saying one thing to you but something else to a rival.

But in the end, I think we don't know what causes one of the most powerful of emotions, but it is universal, and, as the King Solomon wrote, "Love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire."

It blindsides Eli when Oskar jokes with her about "picking up a few babes" on the way to Blackeberg. Her reaction is immediate and so unlike Eli that PeteMork referred to it as departing from canonical Eli's expected demeanor and language -- "You complete moron stupid idiot -- you did not!" To me, Eli is so shocked at the idea that Oskar might do that, that she is sputtering, unable to respond coherently. Don't know if that worked for the reader. But it's a flash of jealously that goes as quickly as it comes.

If I get a chance to explore it, it could take a more serious turn. Oskar's "babes" were imaginary, a mean way of teasing Eli. But if someone is perceived as flirting with Oskar -- or vice-versa -- or even just taking too much of his attention away from Eli, who is standing right next to him, then I don't know...
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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