On sex and gender

[crazychristina]

I just want to say to crazychristina that I am an FTM transman. You and I both know both know what it is like for our gender to not match our sex, which is a very hard thing to go through.
Anyway, in regards to Eli, I think even before the castration, she was quite androgynous. I also firmly believe she is transgendered. I realize that some people think that the way she dresses is not enough to back that idea up. However, it's that the fact she dresses the way she does, it's WHY she does so. I believe that she does so because it is her way of expressing herself. There is a possibility that it could be for her survival as well, but I believe that is a small chance. Eli is truly a mystery, but so is gender.

Very hard indeed, although we do learn more about what it is to be human than most people get the chance(?) to do. I think we'll have to disagree on Eli's gender status, although I am coming around more to seeing her as TG if not totally TS. Of course it could just be Lina's influence.

[Ash]

Great posts everyone.
I've been thinking about this comment by Eli in the "Eli. Will you go out with me?" bedroom scene.
Eli says to Oskar, "...We can kiss, if you like."
This offer was made while Eli and Oskar were naked in bed together.
Was Eli offering Oskar a real pash, and if so, why? Because she thought that was what Oskar wanted?
Or because that was what s/he thought (hoped) "going out" meant?
Eli was happy with Oskar's explanation that people don't "..do anything in particular with someone you're going out"
If Oskar had said YES to Eli's offer to kiss rather than NO, it would have been interesting.
As it was, Oskar wasn't interested in kissing, and perhaps Eli's offer of kissing would have been purely mechanical, without passion, love or sexuality. Just something s/he had seen others do.
But it does make you think. What would have that kiss been like? Just mechanical, or something more?

[drakkar]

As it was, Oskar wasn't interested in kissing, and perhaps Eli's offer of kissing would have been purely mechanical, without passion, love or sexuality. Just something s/he had seen others do.

Yes, I think so. Eli was used to adult helpers, the current one a pedophile, so he probably had heard suggestions about kissing before when lying naked in bed. So Eli passes it on to Oskar, not really knowing what it is.

But it does make you think. What would have that kiss been like? Just mechanical, or something more?

A difficult one. Chronologically AFAIR this happened some hours after the candy store visit. Returning to the courtyard, Eli notices Håkan is gone and get this lonely and desolated look. A spark is ignited, Oskar spontaneously hugs Eli to comfort him. And in return he is almost nommed (again) by a hungry Eli. After getting Oskar's confirmation about liking him even if he wasn't a girl, Eli is off nomming the old lady. No longer afraid he might attack Oskar, Eli returns to Oskar's bedroom, and he asks if Eli want to go steady with him. So I think it was a bit early for a real kiss. Quite mechanical from Eli I think. I don't see ELi as "quite there" yet, still not enough human. (A few days earlier ELi thought he loved Håkan - helping each other surviving was all there was to love, Eli believed). And Oskar? Surely a spark was ignited in the courtyard a few hours earlier, but a compassionate kiss? No, I don't think so. A mechanichal one from him also.

[Ash]

Yes, but it's difficult to believe that someone so old wouldn't have learnt the implication of kissing beyond the mechanical/physical aspect.
Even young children know that kissing is associated with showing love to someone.
But perhaps Eli's existence was so devoid of "normality" that s/he never saw that side of life?
Being a vampire in the guise of a young girl over several hundred years with a succession of helpers ... not pure as the driven snow you could say.
JAL tells us that Eli never mentally grew beyond the age of 12, but even given that, I think s/In he is not a complete innocent in these matters.
In fact, much more experienced than me or you, who have lived but a fraction of Eli's life.

[Ka Faraq Gatri]

the question of gender for me is perplexing because like most people, to me male is male and female is female. i find nothing wrong with male is female and female is male or something in between, its just that for me its like trying to visualize the 4th dimension in a 3 dimensional world, aka my brain hasn't been wired to see it clearly if at all. though that doesn't mean i wont keep trying

i personally visualize Eli as female, though i love the fact she is sexless if not entirely genderless, because it means the love that she and Oskar share is of the purest form. sex can often get in the way of true friendship.

Eli's androgyny kind of reminds me of the super mutants in the Fallout series of games.
they were human once and like Eli had their identity's stripped away, though unlike Eli they have no memory of the past. their outward appearance may be muscle-bound male-like to human standards though that really means nothing because they have mutated so much there is no distinguishing a male one from a female one cos they all look and sound the same, even they couldn't tell. i was playing Fallout 3, sneaking around in a super mutant lair and overhearing 1 telling another that it seemed to remember being female once though it wasn't sure, because the more it tried to remember the more its head hurt.

[drakkar]

Yes, but it's difficult to believe that someone so old wouldn't have learnt the implication of kissing beyond the mechanical/physical aspect.
Even young children know that kissing is associated with showing love to someone.
But perhaps Eli's existence was so devoid of "normality" that s/he never saw that side of life?

That's my take also. Eli simply wasn't "human" enough, Oskar teached him that. And even if old, Eli mentally remained twelve. ELi probably was quite "experienced" but would never grasp what he had experienced. I regard the kiss towards the end of the book as the ultimate love kiss, but there is nothing sexual in that kiss, only love.

[Dragonclaws]

I just want to say to crazychristina that I am an FTM transman. You and I both know both know what it is like for our gender to not match our sex, which is a very hard thing to go through.

I'm MTF trans. Female mind, male body.

Anyway, in regards to Eli, I think even before the castration, she was quite androgynous. I also firmly believe she is transgendered. I realize that some people think that the way she dresses is not enough to back that idea up. However, it's that the fact she dresses the way she does, it's WHY she does so. I believe that she does so because it is her way of expressing herself. There is a possibility that it could be for her survival as well, but I believe that is a small chance. Eli is truly a mystery, but so is gender.

At this point, I think this is a case of a cisgender person (JAL) playing with the idea of androgyny. Eli is transgender in the wider sense of the word in that ze's androgynous and crosses gender performances, but probably isn't supposed to be trans in the sense of having gender dysphoria. There's an anime called Kashimashi, about a boy who's transformed into a girl by aliens, which is an excuse for a lesbian romance with some gender humor. In Kashimashi, there's some evidence that the character was supposed to be a trans girl before the transformation because ze was visible to a girl who can only see males as indistinct shapes. This is the kind of thing you're suggesting is the case with Eli? I think JAL's just saying Eli's androgynous, coming from being an androgynous boy, and becoming truly genderless. I don't think JAL would have had the knowledge to distinguish sex, gender identity, and gender roles. Further speculation about hir gender is just fanwanking/fanfic-writing (i.e. what could be).

the question of gender for me is perplexing because like most people, to me male is male and female is female. i find nothing wrong with male is female and female is male or something in between, its just that for me its like trying to visualize the 4th dimension in a 3 dimensional world, aka my brain hasn't been wired to see it clearly if at all. though that doesn't mean i wont keep trying

"Marty, you aren't thinking fourth dimensionally!"

That's my take also. Eli simply wasn't "human" enough, Oskar teached him that. And even if old, Eli mentally remained twelve. ELi probably was quite "experienced" but would never grasp what he had experienced. I regard the kiss towards the end of the book as the ultimate love kiss, but there is nothing sexual in that kiss, only love.

Eli would understand it, just perhaps with a different mindset than an adult, taking no sexual pleasure from it hirself. Eli seems pretty sharp (in more ways than one ). I fully agree with the kiss part.

[drakkar]

Eli would understand it, just perhaps with a different mindset than an adult, taking no sexual pleasure from it hirself. Eli seems pretty sharp (in more ways than one ). I fully agree with the kiss part.

During the long rests, Eli forgot everything he had learned, which would imply he wouldn't learn from experience. He would remember "occations" but not understand more of them than first time he encountered them, after each long rest it was back to "first time" again. He had a lot of "occations" in his mind that Oskar hadn't, but still he wasn't more experienced than Oskar.

[Ash]

The future of Oskar and Eli in Spain, nomming people but never getting physical, looks like a pretty bleak future indeed.
An eternal future of nothing but sleep-overs, and holding hands? I don't think so.
Contemporary 12/13 year olds are snogging and bonking like randy rabbits. Why should they be any different?

[drakkar]

The future of Oskar and Eli in Spain, nomming people but never getting physical, looks like a pretty bleak future indeed.

For us it might look like that (and the nomming part probably is for them as well), but the rest? No, why? Eli and Oskar doesn't know what we know. They are not aware of any loss. Eli and Oskar are in love, and live out their love the way they know (I know what I like, and I like what I know). Perfect!