Finished it...

[OutsideLookingIn]

One of my absolute favorite parts in the book is on page 446 in the English version:

"Eli turned his face to Oskar's, said:
'I...'
Closed his mouth. Then pressed a kiss on Oskar's lips.
For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli's eyes. And what he saw was...himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love.
For a few seconds."

Just absolutely breathtaking!

I'm aware that the original Swedish may have worded the parts referring to Eli it in a more androgynous way, but I just quoted straight from the English book for simplicity.

Aside from being one of the most beautiful parts of the story, it shows that Eli was in no way manipulating Oskar.

That is my favorite passage from the book as well. Superbly written.

[jcckidz]

I'm quoting a comment I made in the "When Eli becomes a boy" thread, incase someone who reads it here (especially if you speak Swedish) wouldn't have read it there. It is on topic with what we've been talking about in this thread.

It's interesting the way the English version makes the switch. I just looked at it again. It's on page 349 in the English version. It reads like this:

Took her right hand out of the pocket, stretched it out toward the record, and pushed her finger on it so it came to a stop.
"Watch it. It can get...damaged."
"Sorry."
Eli quickly pulled his hand back and the record sped up, kept turning.

I don't know Swedish, but I've been told that JAL only referred to Eli with gender words when necessary. Based on what I've read on this site about the Swedish language, it seems that all of the times Eli is referred to with a gender word in the above passage are avoidable in Swedish. I'm under the impression that "Took her right hand..." would be something like "Took the right hand..." in Swedish. So too, "...pushed her finger..." could be "...pushed the finger...." Along with this, "Eli quickly pulled his hand..." seems like it could be "Eli quickly pulled the hand..."

This leads me to believe that the way it is worded in English in the above passage is a creation of the translator, not JAL. It, therefore, seems that the symbolism based on the gender change revolving around Eli placing the finger on the record and then taking it off was not something JAL himelf intended. In the Swedish version (i.e. the real version), the record player passage may not have been the focal point like it is in the English version. In the Swedish (real) version, there may not be a moment where the reader thinks, "Whoa, a couple of sentences ago Eli was being referred to as a girl and now Eli's being referred to as a boy!" In the Swedish version, the separation between referring to Eli in the feminine and masculine may have been paragraphs or even pages long, unlike the English version.

I could be flat out wrong and JAL could have purposefully referred to Eli with gender words in the above passage to create a symbolic moment of stark contrast like I experienced in the English version, even though it could have been avoided had he wanted to. It could be that, in the Swedish version, Eli was being referred to with gender words in that passage because it was coming from Oskar's perspective. Even though Oskar learned Eli was a boy a couple of pages earlier, he still had the image of Eli as a girl imprinted in his mind, but when Eli took the finger off of the record, something clicked and Oskar saw Eli as a boy, so JAL referred to Eli in the masculine. Then again, it may be the way I inquired previously, thus rendering this entire paragraph null and void.

If it's ultimately true that the quick change from "she" to "he" revolving around the record player is only a creation of the translator and not JAL, why did the translator choose to make the record player the focal point of that change instead of a few pages earlier where Eli reveals being a biological boy?

It would be great if someone who speaks Swedish could please let me know how it is in the Swedish/original/intended/real version

[metoo]

... I don't know Swedish, but I've been told that JAL only referred to Eli with gender words when necessary. Based on what I've read on this site about the Swedish language, it seems that all of the times Eli is referred to with a gender word in the above passage are avoidable in Swedish. I'm under the impression that "Took her right hand..." would be something like "Took the right hand..." in Swedish. So too, "...pushed her finger..." could be "...pushed the finger...." Along with this, "Eli quickly pulled his hand..." seems like it could be "Eli quickly pulled the hand..." ...

This is correct. In Swedish the determinate is used if it is clear by the context whose hand (or whatever body part or possession in general) it is about. Additionally, the gender neutral pronoun "sin/sitt" hides the gender of Eli in this passage:

Eli lät axlarna sjunka, körde ner händerna i badrockens fickor, tittade som hypnotiserad på LP-skivans hål av mörker. Öppnade munnen för att säga något, stängde den igen. Tog upp ut högra handen ur fickan, sträckte ut den mot skivan och tryckte sitt pekfinger mot den så att den stannade.
"Akta, den kan … bli förstörd."
"Förlåt."
"Eli drog snabbt tillbaka fingret och skivan tog fart, fortsatte snurra."

[OutsideLookingIn]

For those on the site who speak Swedish, I am very curious. In the original Swedish version of the novel, after Eli reveals his full name, Elias, and that he is a boy, are gender specific pronouns used more regularly or do they still remain rather ambiguous?

[ofelia]

For those on the site who speak Swedish, I am very curious. In the original Swedish version of the novel, after Eli reveals his full name, Elias, and that he is a boy, are gender specific pronouns used more regularly or do they still remain rather ambiguous?

Like in the English version, Eli is not referred to as "he" until the scene after the bleeding scene, where he shows Oskar his memory of the castration. Up until this point Oskar still isn't sure whether to think of Eli as a boy or not. After he sees the memory, Eli begins to be called "he", since Oskar no longer thinks of Eli as a girl. But wherever possible, Eli is not referred to by any gender, even after this scene. From what I remember the male pronoun is used mostly in that basement scene with Håkan.

[jcckidz]

Before I type anything else, I want to give a little explanation as to why I'm asking so many questions about this. I'll start by saying I don't think of Eli as a girl. If anything, I tend to lean towards the boy side when thinking about Eli. Even though it was a bit of a shock at first, I've come to embrace it. So, if JAL was a little more lax when we learn Eli is a biological boy and allowed male pronouns to be used more than he allowed the female ones to be used previously, I suppose that makes more sense. What I see as ideal, however, is to think of Eli as Eli, free of such labels; neither boy nor girl, the way Eli sees Eli. That's why I really hope JAL chose not to be lenient in regards to using male pronouns and only did so when he absolutely had to.

Since I don't know Swedish, unfortunately I can't turn to the book for assistance about these kinds of questions (which SERIOUSLY BITES!!!!!). So, I need to turn to those of you who do speak it. Please be patient with me as my questions may get pretty detailed.

In the English and Swedish it's Eli saying "I will never be whole again."

You're right. My mistake

In the Swedish version Eli is referred to as "he" from around the same time as in the English version, the last few chapters. Before that, it rarely uses gender at all.

It sounds like you're saying gender is used more frequently after we learn Eli is a boy. I could easily be misunderstanding you, though.

There are a few times Eli is "she" when the scene is from Oskar's point of view (or Lacke) but if it's only Håkan and Eli, or Eli alone, there's no gender used.

It seems like you're saying "she" is only used when coming from other characters' perspectives in order to convey their perceptions of Eli as a girl, but otherwise, JAL is always able to avoid using feminine gender words.

Even towards the end "he" is only used when there's no way to avoid using it.

Back before we learn Eli is a biological male, you said there were times when JAL intentionally chose to use gender in order to show other characters' perceptions of Eli as a girl. If he wasn't doing so, however, he was always able to avoid using it. Here, it sounds like you're saying he wasn't always able to avoid using "he" the same way he was able to avoid using "she". If this is true, why?

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding again (I'm very good at that). Maybe what you mean to do here is balance out what you said previously...

Before that, it rarely uses gender at all.

...and assure me that "he" is not used anymore than "she" was. I hope that's what you mean.

Like in the English version, Eli is not referred to as "he" until the scene after the bleeding scene, where he shows Oskar his memory of the castration. Up until this point Oskar still isn't sure whether to think of Eli as a boy or not. After he sees the memory, Eli begins to be called "he", since Oskar no longer thinks of Eli as a girl.

Okay, so after Oskar sees the memory, Eli is called "he" from Oskars perspective.

But wherever possible, Eli is not referred to by any gender, even after this scene.

Does this mean that Oskar eventually stops attaching gender to Eli and thinks of/refers to Eli in gender neutral ways later on? Or are you just saying that Eli is not referred to by any gender in scenes where Eli is not being shown from Oskar's perspective? If the latter, I would think Oskar eventually stops attaching gender to Eli by the end when he refers to Eli as "a little bit of everything" on the train.

From what I remember the male pronoun is used mostly in that basement scene with Håkan.

Why is the male pronoun used here when Eli is not being seen from the perspective of someone who sees Eli as a male, plus the fact that Eli was never referred to with gender in Eli's previous scenes with Hakan? If JAL was able to avoid using "she" in all of the scenes where Eli wasn't being seen from the perspective of those who think of Eli as a girl, then would he be able to do the same and avoid referring to Eli in the masculine when not being seen from the perspective of those who think of Eli as a boy?

I know this is a WHOLE LOT. If there's anything I've worded confusingly and can clear up for you all, please let me know. I want to make sure I worded my questions as clearly as possible. Thank you all for your time and patience. I'm looking forward to the rest of the discussion!

[metoo]

I know this is a WHOLE LOT.

Yes, it is.

That said, and without doing a thorough analysis of the text, I would say that Eli is treated the same throughout the book. Gender-specific pronouns are used sparingly and as per the beholder's view of Eli. Eli himself, of course, knows the truth, and thinks of himself as he, when unavoidable. However, the glimpses into Eli's mind occur only after the (second) memory sharing, when we already have learnt of Eli's original gender.

When Eli is viewed from Oskar's perspective she is used before the memory sharing, and he afterwards. I've checked the text, but found only one occurrence of Eli being referred to from Oskar's perspective after the memory sharing, and that's the bathroom scene with Lacke. The scene is written from Oskar's perspective, and the pronoun used for Eli is he:

Det hade ingen betydelse. Det väsentliga var att gubben hade en kniv i händerna, en kniv som pekade rakt ner mot Elis bröst där han låg naken, blottad i badkaret.

You already know that Oskar struggles with the question of Eli's gender and is aware that Eli is a boy after learning Eli's real name, but he doesn't change his perspective until after the second memory sharing. By the end of the book the question of Eli's gender seems to have lost it's importance to Oskar, he doesn't contemplate it anymore.

You could get a hunch of where Swedish allows hiding the gender of a person by looking for places where his or her is used like in the quote below.

Lacke höjde sitt glas mot munnen Lacke raised his glass to his mouth

Here, the gender of Lacke is hidden in two different ways. First, through the use of the gender-neutral pronoun sitt. Second, by using the determinate form for the owned thing (the mouth).

In the end, if you want to dive this deep into the Swedish original text, you should get it. You don't need to understand the Swedish for this kind of analysis, really. Texts are translated paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence, so you should be able to get the meaning of a particular sentence in Swedish by comparing its position to the English translation. A dictionary would tell you the general meaning of individual words.

[ofelia]

In the end, if you want to dive this deep into the Swedish original text, you should get it. You don't need to understand the Swedish for this kind of analysis, really. Texts are translated paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence, so you should be able to get the meaning of a particular sentence in Swedish by comparing its position to the English translation. A dictionary would tell you the general meaning of individual words.

I agree completely. Before LTROI I had never read anything in Swedish. I had the English copy and the dictionary by me and it wasn't that difficult (although I tend to pick up languages easily). It's definitely worth doing, you'll be able to understand all this more clearly. Stylistically it's very simple, there aren't a lot of elaborate words used, or any long descriptive passages. I would recommend it, since you seem to be interested in the languages differences between the original and the English.

I was definitely a little vague in my explanations; metoo has explained most of it. I also didn't have the text with me when I wrote it, so I didn't give real examples.

What I see as ideal, however, is to think of Eli as Eli, free of such labels; neither boy nor girl, the way Eli sees Eli. That's why I really hope JAL chose not to be lenient in regards to using male pronouns and only did so when he absolutely had to.

This is what he does, for the most part. It's not noticeable in the original Swedish unless you already know that particular twist.

Back before we learn Eli is a biological male, you said there were times when JAL intentionally chose to use gender in order to show other characters' perceptions of Eli as a girl. If he wasn't doing so, however, he was always able to avoid using it. Here, it sounds like you're saying he wasn't always able to avoid using "he" the same way he was able to avoid using "she". If this is true, why?
Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding again (I'm very good at that). Maybe what you mean to do here is balance out what you said previously...

From what I remember the male pronoun is used mostly in that basement scene with Håkan.

Why is the male pronoun used here when Eli is not being seen from the perspective of someone who sees Eli as a male, plus the fact that Eli was never referred to with gender in Eli's previous scenes with Hakan? If JAL was able to avoid using "she" in all of the scenes where Eli wasn't being seen from the perspective of those who think of Eli as a girl, then would he be able to do the same and avoid referring to Eli in the masculine when not being seen from the perspective of those who think of Eli as a boy?

Metoo is right; I guess "he" doesn't get used more than a couple times. I don't have the book on me, but I think that the reason Eli is called "he" in the basement scene is that it's hard to get around in the sense that there is a lot of interaction between Eli and Håkan, involving physical contact. Therefore it becomes necessary to differentiate between Eli's hand/leg/whatever and Håkan's, so you can tell who is doing what. In that case you would sometimes have "hans hand" (his hand) instead of "sin hand" (neutral). At least that's what I think I remember; it may not actually occur in this scene. And it is avoidable to an extent; when this kind of situation occurs earlier on in the novel JAL gets around it by saying "Eli's" hand/body/etc instead of "his". But that can get awkward if used too often. That's the way you have to do it in English, and it almost always sounds awkward. Since JAL doesn't have to depend on it at this point in the book, he uses "he". But probably only a few times, and more for the sake of fluid writing than anything. (Sorry if this is just confusing you further! I will look over the novel and see if I can find an example of this. If not, I guess I'm mistaken )

I also wanted to say that I think Håkan does think of Eli as male, although that scene is not from Håkan's perspective. But before you find out about Eli's gender, Håkan in the hospital dreams of Eli as "a boy angel" coming to rescue him. That stood out to me when I read it, and I'm pretty sure it's in both versions. In scenes that are from Håkan's perspective, gender isn't used, but I think this is because it would confuse the reader/ spoil the twist if we saw that Håkan thought of Eli as "he".
As for Oskar, I think he stops thinking about it after a certain point. It's not really relevant to them anymore, and since Eli dismisses it easily enough I assume Oskar does too.

[intrige]

Metoo, it's like that in the norwegian one too. It's poorly traslated in more than a few ways, but at least the gender nutrual words are there
I recall that in the "Be me a little" scene, instead of saying, Bli mig lite (Bli meg litt) Eli says in the norwegian book: Bli litt meg. I somehow have a problem with that..

[jkwilliams]

These two lines appear right after the "Be me a little scene" in the English version:

And the person in his arms was … Eli.
A boy. My friend. Yes.

That certainly lets the reader know how Oskar views Eli now.
I was just wondering if this was the same in the Swedish version?