Did no one else dislike this film?

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Jameron
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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Jameron » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:06 pm

I find it annoying that people will insist on comparing a film to the book it came from, in an attempt to denigrate the film. This is done to death with Let The Right One In and now it is being done for Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy. Both films are adaptations of the original novels, and as such they aren't intended to tell the complete story from the book. There will be scenes in the book that simply wont translate onto the screen, there will also be scenes that are much better in the book than a film could ever hope to achieve. On top of that there will be huge swaths of printed text that can be encapsulated in one sentence and a facial expression. And yet people base their view of the quality of a film on how close it is to the novel, instead of regarding a film as its own entity.

I have not read the book, nor will I, and I have not seen the BBC version. I came to Tomas' adaptation as a virgin to the story and I absolutely loved it.

As for Gary Oldman not resembling the book description of Smiley, I'll ask this ... does Kåre resemble the book version of Oscar? And does this hinder one's appreciation of Let The Right One In? And further, do film Oscar and Eli resemble the personalities of book Oscar and Eli? And does this hinder one's appreciation of Let The Right One In?

I'm sorry if I sound overly grumpy but a couple of posts really got under my skin, and I had to vent.

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"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli’s eyes. And what he saw was … himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."

Murphypacker
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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Murphypacker » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:00 am

Jameron: The book TTSS has a story to tell and tells it. The film, imho, and that of others, did not get any story told. Smiley was a strong and much-delineated character in the book story. Gary Oldman was not 'Smiley' although he was called that.

I am always defending film handling of text that is not cinematic. Films show, don't tell. I know that. Except in snatches that could only be understood by those who knew the book well, the film neither showed nor told.

You loved the film. If you comprehended the story enough to love it, my hat is off to you.

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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Jameron » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:40 am

Murphypacker wrote:Jameron: The book TTSS has a story to tell and tells it. The film, imho, and that of others, did not get any story told. Smiley was a strong and much-delineated character in the book story. Gary Oldman was not 'Smiley' although he was called that.

I am always defending film handling of text that is not cinematic. Films show, don't tell. I know that. Except in snatches that could only be understood by those who knew the book well, the film neither showed nor told.

You loved the film. If you comprehended the story enough to love it, my hat is off to you.
Firstly, let me welcome you to the forum, I hadn't realised that you had only just joined, I apologise for not welcoming you before.

I'm sure the book does tell it's story, and I'm sure it tells it very well, and very realistically. However, the book isn't the film, and I'm guessing they are telling slightly different stories, as do all adaptations. I can't agree with you that the film didn't tell a story. The film didn't tell a story of spies, it told a story of the effect of being a spy and the damage that it causes people on a human level.

Yes, I comprehended the story in the film enough to love it, it wasn't difficult so you don't need to raise your hat, lol. I'm sure the book is much more convoluted and layered, but that is the beauty of books compared with films. Books can be as long as they need to be, films are limited to a set time, compromises have to be made.

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"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli’s eyes. And what he saw was … himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."

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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Murphypacker » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:10 pm

Jameron: Thanks for the welcome!

You describe the story the film is telling as exactly the story fans of the book feel that the book is telling. If you got that out of the film, then it's not the failure I thought it was. I wish I could embed a quote from your post in this reply, but I forget how to do that.

Also, the film has caused a run on the book and the BBC series, which is great. I thought, right after I watched it, that the film was going to stick a fork in these things for the coming generations!

This is a case of a fan of the book happening on a forum meant for fans of the film director. Since you loved the film, and got what you did out of it, I recommend the read to you. It is not a long book. I'm going to give the film another look!

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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Jameron » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:34 pm

Murphypacker wrote:Jameron: Thanks for the welcome!

You describe the story the film is telling as exactly the story fans of the book feel that the book is telling. If you got that out of the film, then it's not the failure I thought it was. I wish I could embed a quote from your post in this reply, but I forget how to do that.
To quote others, all you need to do is hit the "Quote" button on the upper right of their posts, see below...

Image

...instead of hitting the "PostReply" button at the bottom of the page.

Hope this helps.

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I really don't see me reading the book any time soon, I have a list of books to read as long as my arm, including two more from Mr Lindqvist.

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"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli’s eyes. And what he saw was … himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."

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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Nightrider » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:58 pm

TTSS is an interesting subject. It has been a best selling novel, a TV miniseries and a film.
As long as we agree that all three of those pieces are separate and independent entities everything should be fine. There are avid fans of the book(which I never read), fans of the film and fans of the TV production. I absolutely loved the movie...loved everything about it. Loved it's rhythm, loved it's cast, it's direction and design. I totally understood the storyline and the choices made by Tomas Alfredson. However, it was not a film for the mass audience....and that's OK. Different people, different tastes.
I also watched the DVD of original BBC miniseries(which by the way did not have subtitles). BBC show was absolutely wonderful, but you could not compare it to the movie. Alec Guinness was a great Smiley, but so was Gary Oldman. Some may not agree, but so what. TV miniseries and the movie will never be the same thing. They are two different animals....and once again there's nothing wrong with that. In the end It's all subjective. Tastes vary and that is why bickering over them is pointless.
Vitaly.

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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Jameron » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:18 pm

Nightrider wrote:TTSS is an interesting subject. It has been a best selling novel, a TV miniseries and a film.
As long as we agree that all three of those pieces are separate and independent entities everything should be fine. There are avid fans of the book(which I never read), fans of the film and fans of the TV production. I absolutely loved the movie...loved everything about it. Loved it's rhythm, loved it's cast, it's direction and design. I totally understood the storyline and the choices made by Tomas Alfredson. However, it was not a film for the mass audience....and that's OK. Different people, different tastes.
I also watched the DVD of original BBC miniseries(which by the way did not have subtitles). BBC show was absolutely wonderful, but you could not compare it to the movie. Alec Guinness was a great Smiley, but so was Gary Oldman. Some may not agree, but so what. TV miniseries and the movie will never be the same thing. They are two different animals....and once again there's nothing wrong with that. In the end It's all subjective. Tastes vary and that is why bickering over them is pointless.
Vitaly.

PS. and by the way...Murphypacker welcome to the site.
I agree with you, different people = different tastes.

Two things though ... why would you need subtitles? ... and, who was bickering? I thought mine and Murphypacker's behaviour was exemplary. :think:

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"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli’s eyes. And what he saw was … himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."

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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Nightrider » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:45 pm

I believe Murphypacker had a question about subs in the BBC show since he was having a bit of a hearing problem. True, there was no actual fisticuffs, but for a second it appeared like the whole good natured discussion was about to slide into IMDB territory. 8-) Anyway, I was just speaking for myself.
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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Jameron » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:10 pm

Nightrider wrote:I believe Murphypacker had a question about subs in the BBC show since he was having a bit of a hearing problem. True, there was no actual fisticuffs, but for a second it appeared like the whole good natured discussion was about to slide into IMDB territory. 8-) Anyway, I was just speaking for myself.
Ah, I missed that bit about the subs :oops:

I would never, never behave like an IMDBer here. This site is an oasis of sanity and good will, and long may it be so.

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"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli’s eyes. And what he saw was … himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."

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Re: Did no one else dislike this film?

Post by Wolfchild » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:46 am

Murphypacker wrote:I disliked the film for two reasons, one of which has been cited by several of the forum members.

The story is too complex to be told in a 2-hour movie. You end up with an illustration of the book, if you've read the book.

As an illustration of the book, it fails because Gary Oldman is nothing at all like Smiley. Not in any way.

This is a very good book, if you find the story appealing but had trouble following. Read it.

Don't think yourself dumb if you couldn't follow this movie. The director did not succeed in telling the story.

I would love to see the BBC Alec Guinness series again. Has anyone watched it recently and could tell me if it has subtitles? I need them because of a loss of hearing. That was a success because Guinness couldn't have been better as Smiley, and because they had time to tell the story.
Is it possible that your expectations were not met because the film did not flesh out the book? Tomas Alfredson discussed making this film with John LeCarré, and one thing that LeCarré told him was (and I'm paraphrasing from memory here), "Don't try to make the book. The book already exists."

Tomas' goal was to tell the essence of the story - a story of Cold War and how it ways that it was personal, impersonal, and insanely convoluted for these particular cold warriors. I liked this film because it managed to do all of these things without shoving anything in my face. He layered a lot of complexity into this film, and he did it without resorting to any stupid dramatic tricks or tired tropes. In fact, he challenged me me to put this complex story together for myself by giving me just enough of the pieces and nothing more. I like that he respects his audience enough to trust that they can do that. Realizing this, I was trying to notice everything on the screen.

Is it possible that I liked this film more than you did because I was focused on finding what was there, and you could have been distracted by noticing what was not?
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