[SPOILERS AHEAD] About Let the Old Dreams Die, specifically the sequel to LTROI

For discussion of John Ajvide Lindqvist's short story collection Låt de gamla drömmarna dö
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Milkman
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[SPOILERS AHEAD] About Let the Old Dreams Die, specifically the sequel to LTROI

Post by Milkman » Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:48 pm

I was expecting a lot more discussions and conversations between readers here on this topic.

It was a small, yet informative and emotional sequel. Unfortunately I had received the spoiler of the photograph prior to reading the story. Made no difference though, by the time I was at the ending I wasn't expecting it. I don't think I even thought about it while reading, but even if I did, I only remember getting really emotional like I always seem to get.

I loved everything about it. I always seem to enjoy seeing things in other people's perspectives. Seeing their reactions, understanding their thought process, it's interesting. The way it was written, for me, was just perfect.
Unfortunately, I was left wondering how Stefan and Karin reacted when they first received the letter, and also when they first realized what it really was that they had in front of them. Nonetheless, I still believe it was for the best, to create a sense of mystery and of wonder. Specially taking into consideration that we never see them again, it was a really well-thought-out ending, in my opinion.

The part that got me reading it over and over again, (and that even today made me go back to it) was this :
There was something vaguely threatening about the two children moving behind the smiling, unsuspecting family. Like predators.
Is there an ulterior motive for that being said? Is it merely an observation, taking into consideration everything that he knows about the circumstances surrounding Oskar and Eli? (And also the fact that he has just discovered that they didn't age a day). Or was he trying to imply that they intended to harm that family?
I guess the most likely is that since he had just confirmed they are vampires, his thought while looking at the photograph was that they were out hunting. Not specifically the family. I would assume they'd try to avoid harming a whole family, not only because it would it be hard, but also for the fact that a whole family would be easily missed, unlike some rando from the street.
I like to think that they were just hunting, not at all focused on the family in particular. I don't think they would be the type to butcher a family. Not unless they were really desperate.
I must be gone and live, or stay and die.

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Siggdalos
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Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] About Let the Old Dreams Die, specifically the sequel to LTROI

Post by Siggdalos » Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:29 pm

Forgive me for using this thread as an opportunity to wax poetic and gush about this short story that's very close to my heart. :D :wub:
Milkman wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:48 pm
I was expecting a lot more discussions and conversations between readers here on this topic.
I would guess that, for most of the active posters here, the scenario presented in LTODD, or at least the general idea of Oskar getting infected, is ingrained in their minds as being the only reasonable continuation of the story, so it's usually the default starting point for fan fiction and the like. But as a result, I suppose the story of LTODD itself can fall a bit by the wayside.
At least that's how it is for me; to me LTODD is the only true ending, since all of the other possible scenarios (e.g. Oskar as a new Håkan) seem very unsatisfying in comparison (though that's not to say they can't be interesting scenarios to explore). In my opinion, Oskar willingly becoming a monster to be with Eli forever is both beautiful and tragically horrific in a way that other possible ending scenarios are not. In a way, it perfectly encapsulates the mix of heartwarming beauty and bloody horror that characterizes the original story itself.
Milkman wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:48 pm
I loved everything about it. I always seem to enjoy seeing things in other people's perspectives. Seeing their reactions, understanding their thought process, it's interesting. The way it was written, for me, was just perfect.
I agree. Even after reading almost all of JAL's published work, LTODD remains, in my opinion, the best thing he's written (so far!). I love LTROI, but it has a number of flaws and parts that I dislike. I can't say the same about LTODD. I wouldn't change a single word in it. It is perfect.
I don't remember if it was on my first read or a reread, but the first time that I can remember that a book made me tear up was when I was reading LTODD (if memory serves, it was the part describing how Karin recovered from her surgery). It still manages to have that effect on me sometimes. Especially if I read it right after watching the movie and I still have Johan Söderqvist's main theme from the end credits resonating in my ears.
Milkman wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:48 pm
Unfortunately, I was left wondering how Stefan and Karin reacted when they first received the letter, and also when they first realized what it really was that they had in front of them. Nonetheless, I still believe it was for the best, to create a sense of mystery and of wonder. Specially taking into consideration that we never see them again, it was a really well-thought-out ending, in my opinion.
I also agree with this. I think it was a very conscious move on John's part to only let us see a brief glimpse of O&E through another character's eyes and to ultimately give S&K the same treatment. As the narrator tells us about S&K (my translation):
"I have never met a couple with such integrity, such closeness as those two. They made up their own little universe."

S&K exist only for each other. As much as we try, we--as readers--can only ever manage to view them from the outside, just like the narrator does. And of course, S&K's relationship is a reflection of O&E's (just as it is a reflection of John and Mia's relationship). When they choose to pursue the same fate as O&E, they--like the children--vanish from of our and the narrator's sight for good to truly enter their own separate world away from the rest of humanity. All we can do after that point is to speculate and dream new dreams about what they're up to.
Milkman wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:48 pm
Is there an ulterior motive for that being said? Is it merely an observation, taking into consideration everything that he knows about the circumstances surrounding Oskar and Eli? (And also the fact that he has just discovered that they didn't age a day). Or was he trying to imply that they intended to harm that family?
[...] I like to think that they were just hunting, not at all focused on the family in particular. I don't think they would be the type to butcher a family. Not unless they were really desperate.
Well, it's up for interpretation. I've always read it as the narrator concluding that O&E were about to kill the family (at least until they realized they were being photographed...). I think that, given that it's been more than 20 years since the events of LTROI and we never see them up close, one could imagine a scenario where O&E have completely given up on their humanity and only care about each other, with no concern at all for anyone else, meaning they wouldn't hesitate to massacre a family if they needed to and had the opportunity. I don't personally hold that view, but the possibility is there.
De höll om varandra i tystnad. Oskar blundade och visste: detta var det största. Ljuset från lyktan i portvalvet trängde svagt in genom hans slutna ögonlock, la en hinna av rött för hans ögon. Det största.

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Milkman
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Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] About Let the Old Dreams Die, specifically the sequel to LTROI

Post by Milkman » Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:50 am

Siggdalos wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:29 pm
Forgive me for using this thread as an opportunity to wax poetic and gush about this short story that's very close to my heart. :D :wub:
Of course!! That's the whole point of this :D
Siggdalos wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:29 pm
Milkman wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:48 pm
I was expecting a lot more discussions and conversations between readers here on this topic.
At least that's how it is for me; to me LTODD is the only true ending, since all of the other possible scenarios (e.g. Oskar as a new Håkan) seem very unsatisfying in comparison (though that's not to say they can't be interesting scenarios to explore). In my opinion, Oskar willingly becoming a monster to be with Eli forever is both beautiful and tragically horrific in a way that other possible ending scenarios are not. In a way, it perfectly encapsulates the mix of heartwarming beauty and bloody horror that characterizes the original story itself.
Indeed! I remember first finishing both movies. First the american version and then the Swedish version. I was an idiot and so during a time I preferred the american version just because "Abby" from there looked "cooler" when killing people, but oh well, after finishing, I was obsessed with finding out what happened to Oskar/Owen. However, the website I was in was part of the Let Me In Wiki, and from what I remember most people there said that Owen would become Abby's caretaker. I mean, I even went as far as to ask in Quora if Owen was indeed to become her caretaker, to which people answered that yes. I was absolutely "Shook" as they say, I believe is the correct term.
Afterwards though, somewhere in some wiki I also read about the photograph from LTODD, and then also started noticing the various differences in both movies. Then I found this forum, read the book and boom, I was finally part of this amazing Universe.

I cannot express how much of a relief it was to know Oskar and Eli were together like that. Like you said, Oskar despite knowing how monstrous the thing inside Eli really was, still chose to be in the same position as him. Everything, to be with him. Now, if that's not love I don't know what is.
Siggdalos wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:29 pm
When they choose to pursue the same fate as O&E, they--like the children--vanish from of our and the narrator's sight for good to truly enter their own separate world away from the rest of humanity.
Huh, I haven't thought of it that way! You just gave me a more profund understanding of the story. I actually looked at the fact that they left with some sadness, but looking at it that way it trully is something of beauty!

Siggdalos wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:29 pm
I think that, given that it's been more than 20 years since the events of LTROI and we never see them up close, one could imagine a scenario where O&E have completely given up on their humanity and only care about each other, with no concern at all for anyone else, meaning they wouldn't hesitate to massacre a family if they needed to and had the opportunity. I don't personally hold that view, but the possibility is there.
Yeahh, you have a good point there. Before reading fan fictions I used to believe that Eli had actually created some form of apathy in the moment of killing. He himself stated that he does it simply to survive, although that doesn't necessarily mean he created apathy (I can't recall if this is something he said exclusively on the movie, or if he also said it in the book). I still believe this, but fan fictions also helped me remember that he's still a kid, he needs to feel something, no matter how hard he tries to hide it.

However, I guess that since they exist only to each other, now more than ever. The possibility of them looking at everything else as "a danger to their happiness" could be a high motivator to do as you said and not hesitate to kill whomever they please.

Also, interesting of you to say it like that:
(...) given that it's been more than 20 years since the events of LTROI
When Oskar was munching on various sweets while he read about a Swedish murderer who had killed two male prostitutes in his home sauna, he thought to himself "Could be me in twenty years". Just an interesting correlation between what you wrote and something from the book. Obviously, we know that he is indeed killing people. But I think it's safe to assume he isn't butchering them like the murderer mentioned in the novel.
I must be gone and live, or stay and die.

Galen
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Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] About Let the Old Dreams Die, specifically the sequel to LTROI

Post by Galen » Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:01 pm

Siggdalos wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:29 pm
I also agree with this. I think it was a very conscious move on John's part to only let us see a brief glimpse of O&E through another character's eyes and to ultimately give S&K the same treatment. As the narrator tells us about S&K (my translation):
"I have never met a couple with such integrity, such closeness as those two. They made up their own little universe."

S&K exist only for each other. As much as we try, we--as readers--can only ever manage to view them from the outside, just like the narrator does. And of course, S&K's relationship is a reflection of O&E's (just as it is a reflection of John and Mia's relationship). When they choose to pursue the same fate as O&E, they--like the children--vanish from of our and the narrator's sight for good to truly enter their own separate world away from the rest of humanity. All we can do after that point is to speculate and dream new dreams about what they're up to.
I hadn't considered this at all when reading -- but I really love this interpretation of how the story is presented to us. The people who knew them, and the readers, get the privilege of seeing this formative part of these characters’ relationships, but then, they're gone. Riding off into the sunset as it were, as if they're unable to be touched by anyone in the world, invincible -- locked into this state of romance between them that can never die.

All we get is the rare reassurance that things are just fine (at least as “just fine” as killing innocent families can be).

It’s kind of bittersweet, because that implies that we don't ever get a chance to be let back into their world.

I could totally understand John never writing that follow up to Eli / Oskar's story for that reason alone. I’d, of course, be extremely curious to see what they’ve been up to, in detail. Though, seeing them in the background of another book of his randomly -- even without any true interaction or impact on the story -- would be really fun as well.

Milkman wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:48 pm
Is there an ulterior motive for that being said? Is it merely an observation, taking into consideration everything that he knows about the circumstances surrounding Oskar and Eli? (And also the fact that he has just discovered that they didn't age a day). Or was he trying to imply that they intended to harm that family?
[...] I like to think that they were just hunting, not at all focused on the family in particular. I don't think they would be the type to butcher a family. Not unless they were really desperate.
When I read that, I wanted to interpret it the same way -- that they were just hunting, but it really does imply that they look malicious at that family in particular.

I find that strange though, since it seems so much more dangerous and wasteful to attack a family, not even to think about the moral implications, if Oskar and Eli still held onto any morals after all that time.

@metoo has a fanfic on here Monster http://let-the-right-one-in.com/fancont ... sh-version (highly recommended) that explores a possible more noble reason for them to be doing something like this.

Who knows, could be fun to explore the background of this particular photograph in a fanfic. :P


More on S&K, I can’t help but wonder how their adventure went.

Karin should be skilled enough to eventually track O&E down and confront them, especially since she knows just the sorts of things to look for and even potentially how to bait them out.

I can see so many different possibilities for how that meeting would play out, depending a lot on the context of the situation. I just can’t imagine how hard it would be to get either Oskar or Eli to talk to you, or even listen to you, especially if they’re off in their own world, completely uncaring about anyone else. Maybe they could see the same sort of love in S&K as they have, and care enough to share their “situation” with them. Or maybe they would just run off to another part of the world, scared someone knew of them, or even worse and become violent.

S&K would be completely at their mercy, I think, probably even on purpose, going into it totally vulnerable given their current state, and since they were going to ask for a favor, so to speak.

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