Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

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metoo
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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by metoo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:55 am

PeteMork wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:24 pm
Unless of course, we want to introduce some magical interpretation of 'life force' into the equation. Personally, I'm unwilling to accept such an interpretaion on faith. 8-) I prefer Science, when there's a conflict between the two.
Well, the entire vampire business is in conflict with science.

And, of course, the novel has this to say:
Men magi ... naturligtvis finns det magi. Om än aldrig så lite. De som förnekade magin, det var dem det gick illa för.
But magic ... of course there is magic. Albeit ever so little. Those who denied magic, it was those that had bad things happen to them.

So beware, Pete, you're on a dangerous path here! ;)

Now, Pete and I have discussed this subject before. At considerable length, too. But for the sake of newcomers, I will repeat my position:

I think it's necessary for the novel that Eli's vampirism is incurable. Eli has to be in the most horrible position, having to kill people to survive. Blood bags would provide an escape out of that, and therefore are not allowed.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by sauvin » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:26 am

metoo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:55 am
PeteMork wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:24 pm
Unless of course, we want to introduce some magical interpretation of 'life force' into the equation. Personally, I'm unwilling to accept such an interpretaion on faith. 8-) I prefer Science, when there's a conflict between the two.
Well, the entire vampire business is in conflict with science.

And, of course, the novel has this to say:
Men magi ... naturligtvis finns det magi. Om än aldrig så lite. De som förnekade magin, det var dem det gick illa för.
But magic ... of course there is magic. Albeit ever so little. Those who denied magic, it was those that had bad things happen to them.

So beware, Pete, you're on a dangerous path here! ;)

Now, Pete and I have discussed this subject before. At considerable length, too. But for the sake of newcomers, I will repeat my position:

I think it's necessary for the novel that Eli's vampirism is incurable. Eli has to be in the most horrible position, having to kill people to survive. Blood bags would provide an escape out of that, and therefore are not allowed.
The poetry, you see, is in the blood, and it's very, very dark.
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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by dongregg » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 am

metoo: I think it's necessary for the novel that Eli's vampirism is incurable. Eli has to be in the most horrible position, having to kill people to survive. Blood bags would provide an escape out of that, and therefore are not allowed.
I thought the question centered on what we can bring forward from the novel into fan fictions. The novel ends, but the tales keep coming.

The magic you mentioned gets worked whatever way the writer handles it. The characters don't have to be cured in order to use refrigerated blood. They might even have to kill a bad guy or a rogue vampire now and again, but their ongoing security requires that random victims do not show up in excessive numbers if they are going to spend much time in an area.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by sauvin » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:56 am

dongregg wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 am
metoo: I think it's necessary for the novel that Eli's vampirism is incurable. Eli has to be in the most horrible position, having to kill people to survive. Blood bags would provide an escape out of that, and therefore are not allowed.
I thought the question centered on what we can bring forward from the novel into fan fictions. The novel ends, but the tales keep coming.

The magic you mentioned gets worked whatever way the writer handles it. The characters don't have to be cured in order to use refrigerated blood. They might even have to kill a bad guy or a rogue vampire now and again, but their ongoing security requires that random victims do not show up in excessive numbers if they are going to spend much time in an area.
So, why did Eli's hands smell like gasoline?
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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by dongregg » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:58 am

Sauvin: So, why did Eli's hands smell like gasoline?
Because it worked for JAL?
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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by sauvin » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:22 am

dongregg wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:58 am
Sauvin: So, why did Eli's hands smell like gasoline?
Because it worked for JAL?
And it worked for Eli. I should imagine that a couple centuries would have taught her a number of fairly clever ways to dispose of table scraps. Some get barbecued, some get dropped into chasms or lakes, some "inadvertently lose their way" in sewer systems and maybe others stumble into a wood chipper. I'm no expert in this area, never having had to worry about disposing of this kind of evidence because virtually all my meals come in cans, bottles, boxes or shrink wrap, and the remains of all my meals wind up in a landfill. When she has to do her own hunting, given that she's more than reasonably bright, she'll have undoubtedly thought up some approaches that would never occur to me.

You've hit on the key concept: an unusual rise in murder rates within the immediate cluster of zip codes. Mind you, the murders have to be noticed, so just being deft at disposal isn't enough, she also has to be mindful of an unusual rise in "missing persons" reports. One way to do this, of course, is to keep rubbing elbows with society's flotsam and jetsam, people whose absence wouldn't likely be noticed or investigated.

And, of course, yet another way is to rely on personal shoppers like Haakan. He's a man with his own personal beast, so if he's apprehended, he can rant and rave all he wants about how he was hoodwinked into tapping juicebags for a vampire, but people (who don't usually seriously believe in vampires) would just shake their heads and mutter that here's another one who's eaten too many funny mushrooms and now they've sporulated in his brains - while Eli makes a quick and quiet exit into the night. As a bonus, the personal shoppers can also clean up after impulse snacks.

I think it's ludicrous to dismiss out of hand anything our science can't explain. Once upon a time, you'll note, science couldn't explain why it's not wise to chuck a few pounds of pulverised sodium into the family bathtub and said absolutely nothing about the common "knowledge" that maggots appeared on rotting meat out of thin air. We're still being confounded by all sorts of natural phenomena (just ask the quantum mechanics boys), and there's just no guarantee that we've seen everything there is to see. Science doesn't account for vampires because science has never documented them. I don't say that vampires exist, I say only that their existence can't be definitively disproven, and that they're not credibly documented.

I do say, however, that some of what once was "magical" to us is now merely a matter of elementary physics or chemistry. The principles governing what was once "magical" simply hadn't been encountered, studied, analysed and typified yet, and the preternatural has since become pedestrian.

Science isn't what most people seem to think it is.

What powers JAL's story for me most is that Eli is irredeemable, and found something resembling love anyway. If that irredeemability is exacerbated (magnified) by a magical dimension, so be it. Little boys don't usually go on to mark enough birthdays to bury a birthday cake with candles, or "think" themselves claws, teeth and wings. Given this, why would it be so surprising or so objectionable that there's something in the blood that loses some vital element or quality after it's been harvested and stored, something that our science hasn't detected yet let alone figured out how to preserve?

The poetry is indeed in the blood, and it's very, very dark, but the poetry's darkness is lost when it's been away too long from a warm, beating heart. It's the need for that cold, lightless poetry that places Eli forever beyond the pale of "d'aww".

However, metoo, just for giggles and titters, let's say that Eli could be cured, that the colonising Otherness could be evicted. So what? Now, she has to grow up, and she has to grow older, and a couple of centuries of her lifestyle is bound to have messed her up far beyond the imagining of it. There are plenty of kids around who'd had to endure abusive home lives for a mere decade or two who've gone on to live long, miserable lives, kids who've had to spend the rest of their lives trying to figure out how to coexist with the memories and the sequelae of their broken childhoods and failing utterly. After more than a couple of centuries, could you honestly believe that taking Eli away from the vampire would be the same as taking the vampire away from her?

What may even be worse is that she's one strange little messed up girl, but we have to presume that the evicted vampire would take all his toys away with him. No more claws, no more wings, no more fabulous resistance to injury, disease or cold Swedish winters, and no more footprints in the snow meters and meters apart. She'd be unable to defend herself, and that would mess her up even more.
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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by metoo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:40 am

sauvin wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:22 am
What powers JAL's story for me most is that Eli is irredeemable, and found something resembling love anyway.
This, I believe, is my position as well. It's the contrast between Eli's absolute alienation and the friendship Oskar offers that carries the story for me. I would rather not have that contrast reduced.
sauvin wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:22 am
However, metoo, just for giggles and titters, let's say that Eli could be cured, that the colonising Otherness could be evicted. So what? Now, she has to grow up, and she has to grow older, and a couple of centuries of her lifestyle is bound to have messed her up far beyond the imagining of it. There are plenty of kids around who'd had to endure abusive home lives for a mere decade or two who've gone on to live long, miserable lives, kids who've had to spend the rest of their lives trying to figure out how to coexist with the memories and the sequelae of their broken childhoods and failing utterly. After more than a couple of centuries, could you honestly believe that taking Eli away from the vampire would be the same as taking the vampire away from her?

What may even be worse is that she's one strange little messed up girl, but we have to presume that the evicted vampire would take all his toys away with him. No more claws, no more wings, no more fabulous resistance to injury, disease or cold Swedish winters, and no more footprints in the snow meters and meters apart. She'd be unable to defend herself, and that would mess her up even more.
Well, even though you addressed me, I'm not sure that I am supposed to reply. It seems we don't disagree. That said, I might find such a tale interesting.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by gkmoberg1 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:26 pm

sauvin wrote:And, of course, yet another way is to rely on personal shoppers like Haakan. He's a man with his own personal beast, so if he's apprehended, he can rant and rave all he wants about how he was hoodwinked into tapping juicebags for a vampire, but people (who don't usually seriously believe in vampires) would just shake their heads and mutter that here's another one who's eaten too many funny mushrooms and now they've sporulated in his brains - while Eli makes a quick and quiet exit into the night. As a bonus, the personal shoppers can also clean up after impulse snacks.
This is an interesting scenario and one that must have happened to Eli at least once. Surely? Her 'helper' is caught and squeals. "Vampire! I was helping her!"

Yet look at what Eli does when Håkan fails to return. The police or detectives could have come at any point. Right? She has no idea what he might spout out in a delusional state or perhaps intentionally under question. There is risk in her staying put.

Despite this, Eli makes no attempt to improve herself against an arrival by the authorities. They could have descended almost immediately, coming to check out her helper's claim of "Yes, vampire I say! Oh, my Eli!" This could have happened. "Yes she's a cute little thing. Except when you disappoint her repeatedly. We live on Ibsengaten.... be sure to stop by during the day. She'll be in bathroom. With her stuffed fluffy toy. Don't knock."

The point is, it's rather odd that Eli - who has the wisdom of 200+ years of survival on her side - does nothing to improve her lot following the capture of her helper. Is this to suggest naivety on Eli's part?

(Ha, I typed this at first using 'he'/'him' because I ever think of the novel first. Yet this thread is in the film forum. So, I edit it to 'she' and 'her'. However, it is the same observation either way - film or novel. Actually, the scenario is worse for Eli in the novel than Eli in the movie.)

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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by SpartanAltego » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:27 am

There's actually a very intriguing and important element of the agreed-on "blood donor rotation" plot often used to plausibly feed Eli (and sometimes Oskar) that the fan story "Let Me In 2" delves into. Namely, that while your physical supply of blood replenishes relatively quickly (72 hours), the red blood cells within actually take several additional weeks (4-8) to be restored to normal levels. So even though a blood donor may have the same fluid amount of blood replenished, they will still be short on vital components within that blood and repeated donations would quickly deteriorate their health.

In other words, even if you had six people to take a pint from each week, eventually you would have to stop (probably after the fourth donation) or you'd kill them from health complications due to a low red blood cell count. It's an interesting caveat that actually does again help explain to some degree why (beyond perhaps personal preference) Eli didn't simply collect multiple "guardians" to act as personal blood banks or find ways of getting blood from multiple sources. The need for "fresh" blood limits options, and the 4-8 week period where red blood cells would need to be replenished in a donor affects sustainability unless you want to slowly kill your victims over the course of weeks instead of simply picking one target and feeding fully on them.

Figuring out how to deal with this problem for LtLNE has been quite fun, and the solution turned out to be pitch-black comedy in my eyes.
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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Re: Vampirism in the Let The Right One In Universe

Post by sauvin » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:43 am

gkmoberg1 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:26 pm
sauvin wrote:And, of course, yet another way is to rely on personal shoppers like Haakan. He's a man with his own personal beast, so if he's apprehended, he can rant and rave all he wants about how he was hoodwinked into tapping juicebags for a vampire, but people (who don't usually seriously believe in vampires) would just shake their heads and mutter that here's another one who's eaten too many funny mushrooms and now they've sporulated in his brains - while Eli makes a quick and quiet exit into the night. As a bonus, the personal shoppers can also clean up after impulse snacks.
This is an interesting scenario and one that must have happened to Eli at least once. Surely? Her 'helper' is caught and squeals. "Vampire! I was helping her!"

Yet look at what Eli does when Håkan fails to return. The police or detectives could have come at any point. Right? She has no idea what he might spout out in a delusional state or perhaps intentionally under question. There is risk in her staying put.

Despite this, Eli makes no attempt to improve herself against an arrival by the authorities. They could have descended almost immediately, coming to check out her helper's claim of "Yes, vampire I say! Oh, my Eli!" This could have happened. "Yes she's a cute little thing. Except when you disappoint her repeatedly. We live on Ibsengaten.... be sure to stop by during the day. She'll be in bathroom. With her stuffed fluffy toy. Don't knock."

The point is, it's rather odd that Eli - who has the wisdom of 200+ years of survival on her side - does nothing to improve her lot following the capture of her helper. Is this to suggest naivety on Eli's part?

(Ha, I typed this at first using 'he'/'him' because I ever think of the novel first. Yet this thread is in the film forum. So, I edit it to 'she' and 'her'. However, it is the same observation either way - film or novel. Actually, the scenario is worse for Eli in the novel than Eli in the movie.)
I propose a scenario, and possibly even part of the rationale Eli uses to justify the effort and risk of recruiting beyond her need for help when she's "small again" after a long sleep.

Given the section of the novel where she mentions this, and that other people in the past have helped her but for "different reasons", it seems she has had a few helpers over the years... but what kind of man is going to help a vampire? Haakan wasn't helping a vampire, he was helping a child for his own reasons. This makes him a slimy little garden slug, but the novel also clearly outlines his own conflict with it. For Haakan, the words "love", "loyalty" and "sincerity" aren't just words even if the novel also clearly show him and Eli struggling together with what these words are supposed to stand for. It's certainly possible that many of Eli's past helpers have considered those words to have no practical meaning - true human monsters, in other words, who were once upon a time called "moral imbeciles".

She's also said that she hasn't had a normal relationship in a very long time. A child of the night for over two centuries knows men's darkness intimately and may not see that Haakan is particularly dark in any real way, and probably sees in Oskar a potential latent congruence. If Haakan was one of her much better helpers (least repulsive, treacherous, exploitative, etc), surely she was very sincere when she greeted Haakan at his hospital room window with the words "Hello, my friend". One wonders how long it's been since she'd last said those words with any feeling, and, of course, after business (that I actually interpret as euthanasia) is taken care of, POOF she flies off to Oskar's window. Her relationship with Haakan might not have been what anybody would call "normal", but with Oskar, it was, and there's nothing to say this wasn't a first for her.

So, yeah, I'm not particularly surprised our little shark with wings didn't just flee at the first sign of trouble, and would be even less surprised to learn that immediate flight is her usual response.
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