Another LTROI Review

For discussion of Tomas Alfredson's Film Låt den rätte komma in
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ltroifanatic
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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by ltroifanatic » Sun May 14, 2017 3:01 am

Bullies are smart.They don't pick on the strong but target the weak.The default answer to this problem seems to be "hit them back".That's a big ask for someone who is confronted and bullied by some one that is bigger and stronger than you.They run the risk of antagonising the bullies further making a terrible situation even more so.They know they're not going to win the fight and probably be beat up publicly adding even more humiliation.God forbid their parents get involved.The victim assumes that the bullies parents must be bullies too and the last thing they want to see is their parents bullied and humiliated as well.If the school gets involved the bullies just wait till school is over.It's a lose-lose situation for the victim and we see the consequences every day.Self harm,suicide,school shootings and the rest.Plus as a boy turning into a man Oskar would not want to admit his shortcomings to his mum.Unfortunatly boys are still taught to be strong,don't show weakness don't show emotion.Once it starts it's hard to stop until you meet a girl that somehow makes you feel stronger than you really are.
Please Oskar.Be me for a little while.

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PeteMork
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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by PeteMork » Sun May 14, 2017 3:53 am

ltroifanatic wrote:Bullies are smart.They don't pick on the strong but target the weak.The default answer to this problem seems to be "hit them back".That's a big ask for someone who is confronted and bullied by some one that is bigger and stronger than you.They run the risk of antagonising the bullies further making a terrible situation even more so.They know they're not going to win the fight and probably be beat up publicly adding even more humiliation.God forbid their parents get involved.The victim assumes that the bullies parents must be bullies too and the last thing they want to see is their parents bullied and humiliated as well.If the school gets involved the bullies just wait till school is over.It's a lose-lose situation for the victim and we see the consequences every day.Self harm,suicide,school shootings and the rest.Plus as a boy turning into a man Oskar would not want to admit his shortcomings to his mum.Unfortunatly boys are still taught to be strong,don't show weakness don't show emotion.Once it starts it's hard to stop until you meet a girl that somehow makes you feel stronger than you really are.
QFT. I agree the reason he doesn't tell his mom is the shame and humiliation of knowing he fails every time he's bullied without fighting back. That was always my own reason for not telling, even thought my family was both supporting and loving for the most part.

Interestingly, when I was an adult, my father told me about a time he had admonished me for not fighting back, and the next day he saw me running down the street laughing, with my bully in hot pursuit. It turns out I had slugged him back and knocked him on his a.. Dad told me how proud he had been. The odd thing was, I couldn't remember it at all. :D But I did remember the bullying vividly. ;) Now what do you suppose that says about the effect bullying has on its victim? :think:

I suspect Eli would understand it on its primal level :twisted: "You have to hit back; harder than you dare."
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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ltroifanatic
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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by ltroifanatic » Sun May 14, 2017 4:18 am

Maybe it was because you were a good kid and really didn't want to hurt anyone and remembering might have been painful.Even if the bully deserved it.Oskar and Eli are good kids.They really don't want to hurt people but circumstances force them to do it.
Please Oskar.Be me for a little while.

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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by PeteMork » Sun May 14, 2017 5:23 am

ltroifanatic wrote:Maybe it was because you were a good kid and really didn't want to hurt anyone and remembering might have been painful.Even if the bully deserved it.Oskar and Eli are good kids.They really don't want to hurt people but circumstances force them to do it.
Yes. Eli tells Oscar she does it because she has to, and we see her anguish when she cries over Jocke's body. She accuses Oskar of wanting to kill for revenge; yet when he finally hits Jonny with the pole, Oskar gives him his sock to stop the bleeding. Oskar's a nicer kid than even Eli gives him credit for, IMO, in spite of all his dark fantasies. Fantasies are fiction, after all. When the chips were down, Oskar could tell the difference -- with Jonny when he gave him the sock, and with Lacke, when he dropped the sheathed knife on the floor.

(I know I'm combining things in the book with things in the film, but after all, JAL wrote them both. ;) Eli and Oskar, and what lies in their hearts, belongs to him.)
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by dongregg » Sun May 14, 2017 5:55 am

In the book as well as the film, IMO, JAL paints a realistic picture of the bullies and their victim.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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metoo
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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by metoo » Sun May 14, 2017 8:10 am

ltroifanatic wrote:Bullies are smart.They don't pick on the strong but target the weak.The default answer to this problem seems to be "hit them back".That's a big ask for someone who is confronted and bullied by some one that is bigger and stronger than you.
I think the picture of the bigger and stronger bully isn't true. It is also misleading. Bullies are not necessarily bigger or stronger than their victims. On the contrary, in my experience the biggest and strongest were not bullies. Nobody feared them, and nobody needed to. Of course, nobody bullied them, either.

A parenthesis. I remember a quite funny situation involving the biggest guy in class, Dan, and a midget-sized guy named Leif. Dan bullied nobody while Leif was quite prepared to bully, if possible. Now, Leif had some animosity towards a third guy, Per, who was medium size and whom Leif did not dare to approach. Therefore Leif walked up to Dan to falsely slander Per, presumably in the hopes that Dan would get mad and give Per what Leif thought he deserved. This backfired though, because Dan knew Leif and his ways with truth. Thus, instead of directing his anger towards Per, Dan grabbed Leif's nose between the fingers of his fist and held it there like in a vice for the remainder of the break, while calmly chatting along with his friends. When finally released, Leif's nose was quite red and by the looks of it throbbing.

Back to my theme. What makes a bully and a victim of bullying isn't relative size or strength. There's something else. I believe in the bully a willingness to bully, and in the victim a tendency to internalise unkindness shown towards them. They get hurt instead of insulted. Additionally, the victim may be unwilling to play that dirty game, although that's not always the case. Sometimes the victim is also a bully, in a different context. Anyway, I think it was the case with Oskar. He didn't fight back, not because he didn't dare to, but because he didn't want to. He didn't want to hurt Jonny, to see him suffer, and that's why Eli's advice didn't work. Now, some may say that I'm wrong, pointing at Oskar's fantasies of killing Johnny. Yes, Oskar played a game where he was different, one that did want to hurt people. But it was just a game. Oskar could imagine himself being a mad killer, but he could not be one.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by PeteMork » Sun May 14, 2017 2:24 pm

metoo wrote:... He didn't fight back, not because he didn't dare to, but because he didn't want to. He didn't want to hurt Jonny, to see him suffer, and that's why Eli's advice didn't work. Now, some may say that I'm wrong, pointing at Oskar's fantasies of killing Johnny. Yes, Oskar played a game where he was different, one that did want to hurt people. But it was just a game. Oskar could imagine himself being a mad killer, but he could not be one.
This is my take on it also.
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by cmfireflies » Mon May 15, 2017 2:46 am

metoo wrote:Anyway, I think it was the case with Oskar. He didn't fight back, not because he didn't dare to, but because he didn't want to. He didn't want to hurt Jonny, to see him suffer, and that's why Eli's advice didn't work. Now, some may say that I'm wrong, pointing at Oskar's fantasies of killing Johnny. Yes, Oskar played a game where he was different, one that did want to hurt people. But it was just a game. Oskar could imagine himself being a mad killer, but he could not be one.
No I think Oskar definitely didn't dare hit back before Eli. That's why he whacked Conney with the stick only after Eli told him to hit back, so her advice did work. I think that once Oskar did hit Conney, he figured out that hurting his bullies wasn't as cathartic as he imagined it to be.
"When is a monster not a monster? Oh, when you love it."

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metoo
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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by metoo » Mon May 15, 2017 5:06 am

cmfireflies wrote:No I think Oskar definitely didn't dare hit back before Eli. That's why he whacked Conney with the stick only after Eli told him to hit back, so her advice did work. I think that once Oskar did hit Conney, he figured out that hurting his bullies wasn't as cathartic as he imagined it to be.
Eli's advice didn't work. Jonny/Conny didn't stop. Instead, things escalated.

I think the reason the advice didn't work was that Oskar didn't want to hurt people, and that it showed.

Consider how the bullying likely must have progressed up to that point. It would have started with words, and only later escalated to violence. If Oskar had defended himself orally in the beginning, returned the malice, the bullying would have stopped there. But he didn't, because he didn't want to be mean to people.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Another LTROI Review

Post by PeteMork » Mon May 15, 2017 5:49 am

metoo wrote:
cmfireflies wrote:No I think Oskar definitely didn't dare hit back before Eli. That's why he whacked Conney with the stick only after Eli told him to hit back, so her advice did work. I think that once Oskar did hit Conney, he figured out that hurting his bullies wasn't as cathartic as he imagined it to be.
Eli's advice didn't work. Jonny/Conny didn't stop. Instead, things escalated.

I think the reason the advice didn't work was that Oskar didn't want to hurt people, and that it showed.
I don't think these two theories are mutually exclusive. It's very likely Oskar normally didn't dare to hit back. After all, there were three of them confronting him most of the time. At the same time I don't think he wanted to hurt people either, as evidenced by his handing Jonny his sock. In the short term, Eli's advice worked; in the long term of course, it didn't. Hindsight is always 20-20.

But the important thing is, Eli advice, as successful as it seemed to be, didn't change him; didn't make him braver or meaner. This is supported by the way he tossed the sheathed knife away while Eli was killing Lacke. He didn't want any part of the violence he was witnessing. But at the same time, he knew he was partly responsible for Lacke's death because he pulled his knife and shouted at him, thereby alerting Eli to the danger she was in.

In other words he never learned the lesson Eli was trying to teach him. He didn't have the seed in him, in spite of his fantasies. (Or I would like to think he didn't.)
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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