How Does Eli Know?

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dongregg
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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by dongregg » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:19 pm

PeteMork wrote:
a_contemplative_life wrote:To me, the question lies in parsing out what Eli did after leaving in the taxi. Unfortunately, that's a big blank spot in the film. I agree that Eli couldn't have known whether and when the bullies would strike again, so I tend to chalk the ending up to (1) Eli's realization that she didn't want to be without Oskar, and (2) a generalized fear that he might still be in danger, coupled with acute awareness of the commitment she'd made.
This, plus a bit of serendipity. ;)
How about "couldn't live without Oskar." Too much had happened. She was no longer ruled by "To flee, life; to stay, death." It had become, "To flee, death." She could easily have decided that her old life was not worth living now that she an Oskar had bonded so fiercely. She had recovered the joy of her long-buried childhood. The promise then becomes just one more of many new connections to Oskar, but in this scenario, she would have returned whether she had promised to help him or not. Still, she did promise and she did follow through. Serendipity, sure, but it seems like most (?) of us have bought into it. She promised, she came through. Cinema slight of hand.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by jetboy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:20 pm

metoo wrote:I think you are are trying to see stuff in the movie that are not there. Take the film at face value. Eli gave Oskar some well intended advice, which unfortunately didn't work out for Oskar.
I am taking it at face value and the advice did work out in the way she said it would...exactly. When you say it didn't work out for Oskar you are only bringing up that he had to deal with Jimmy, you aren't bringing up the fact that it also ended Oskars miserable life with the bullies instantaneously. This proves Eli knew what the heck she was talking about. Extend this level of intelligence to her realizing that it might not end there.

I mean if they didn't want to have that promise in the movie they could've easily left it out and no one would've been the wiser but they not only left it in there but exaggerated it with Eli grasping Oskars hand.

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by dongregg » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:40 pm

jetboy wrote:I mean if they didn't want to have that promise in the movie they could've easily left it out and no one would've been the wiser but they not only left it in there but exaggerated it with Eli grasping Oskars hand.
It's in for the same reason that we believe Lacke could put 2 and 2 together to identify Eli as the killer. Or that Martin's foot could pass between Jimmy and his arm. It's cinema slight of hand. It works. We have to make Eli's return seem reasonable by appealing to everything from serendipity to supernatural prescience. The overwhelming direction of this romance is that Eli was so changed by the relationship that she wasn't willing to go back to her wretched existence and came back to at least to be close to Oskar, even if from a distance as an observer. Then things happened.

Bottom line: Eli came back.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by jetboy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:25 pm

No its true, the story couldn't end with Eli leaving, they had to get back together. So I guess this provides a vampyric and exciting way of fulfilling that. I'll buy that as one of many ways of looking at it.

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by cmfireflies » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:09 am

The majority of people here (including me) don't really like to think of Eli as manipulative towards Oskar, but I think that it's worth pointing out that thinking that Eli had a grand plan isn't necessarily endorsing the "evil Eli" theory. I think that the idea that Eli planned her return is appealing because it shows that Eli has planned her future with Oskar, that as they ride out into the sunset the two children will be alright. In fact, it's downright scary to consider that their leaving together was a spur of the moment thing and that Eli doesn't actually have any idea how to survive with Oskar.

While I think that she came back in a stroke of good fortune, it's not outside the realm of possibility that Eli left, or pretended to leave to protect Oskar, or at least wanted to keep her promise before leaving for good. After all, I think that she was prepared to leave, and wanted to make sure that Oskar would be OK without her. If she had seen Oskar interacting happily with his fellow schoolmates at the pool, she would have left for good. But it wasn't to be, and the rest is history.

Kind of poetic that an act of violence seals Oskar's fate with Eli and leads to other countless deaths and suffering. It shows that Eli was there for Oskar when no one else was and they deserve to be together, consequences be damned.
"When is a monster not a monster? Oh, when you love it."

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by metoo » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:16 am

jetboy wrote:I am taking it at face value and the advice did work out in the way she said it would...exactly. When you say it didn't work out for Oskar you are only bringing up that he had to deal with Jimmy, you aren't bringing up the fact that it also ended Oskars miserable life with the bullies instantaneously. This proves Eli knew what the heck she was talking about. Extend this level of intelligence to her realizing that it might not end there. [...]
Eli's advice did not work out. The bullies didn't immediately stop when Oskar hit back. They returned, upgraded with Conny's big brother.

Regarding Eli's promise to help, it wasn't part of the advice, but was added afterwards, when Oskar showed reluctant to take the advice. However, what use would the promise be to Oskar? Eli wouldn't be by Oskar's side always. The promise was rather hollow, actually. But don't get me wrong - Eli was of course prepared to help Oskar, if need be, but I don't think he had any clear idea of how it would happen when he made the promise.

I really dislike your idea that Eli already from the start would have known that Oskar and the bullies would end up in a situation like in the bath house. For once it requires supernatural precondition, which I dislike because it makes Eli too powerful. Furthermore, it's inconsistent with other parts of the story, such as the episode with Lacke in the bath room.

However, I've got a second objection. What would it say about Eli if he knew what the bullies would end up doing, and still let it happen? In my eyes that's cruel. Cynically cruel. It's certainly not the Eli I see.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by sauvin » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:29 am

I don't believe Eli has any precognitive ability beyond what any mere mortal might have, or to any unusual degree. Since I don't subscribe to the proposition of Eli being masterful enough with psychological or emotional manipulation to induce whole groups of people to create a set of conditions favourable to a specific desired outcome - or even having the social skills necessary to influence even one person towards a specific goal - I'd suggest that the only way she might have any vague foreknowledge of how things might turn out if Oskar were to accept her advice would be through relevant prior experience. My own suggests that what she said is spot on: if he beats the living daylights out of them, they'll leave him alone because they'll fear that next time he loses it, the violence would escalate against them rather than in their favour. Eli couldn't reasonably be expected to know that one of these little [CENSORED] has an older brother who happens to have an undersized frontal lobe.

However, um, Eli's social graces seem to leave a lot to be desired. She tried to buy something from Oskar in her kitchen (not absolutely certain what), and look how that turned out. Most normal girls of twelve or so could have told you "Um, no..."

When she offered the advice, and then promised to help if needed, she was most likely simply relying on her ability to deal with unforeseen emergencies on the spot. Given that she's survived a couple of centuries, puny little thing that she is, it's fair to say she's probably very adept at knowing when to fight and when to run away. She had no idea what tomorrow might bring when she made that promise, and knew only that some kind of promise - a commitment - was needed. I interpret this knowledge as empathy; she felt his pain and his fear, and shared it.

My own favourite fantasy as to why she left and then came back, apparently without saying anything to him beyond "buh bye", was that she needed to get a few ducks in a row before coming back and seeing if she couldn't persuade him to abscond with her. New apartment on the other side of town, maybe touch bases with a few shady characters to arrange for longer-term travel plans, that kind of thing. In this fantasy, her coming back when she did was the sheerest serendipity.

I think it more likely that she stayed as long as she could, enjoying an extremely rare sorta-kinda vacation from herself, and just ran when her survival demanded it. No thought, no looking back, just making as many tracks as she can as fast as she can. This is what two centuries of a semiferal existence, I imagine, would do to a child. In the novel, she muses that she has all kinds of money, she could just grab a cab and go wherever she wanted, but she DOESN'T WANT TO! "Why can't I have anything!?", she screams quietly.

(because you should be dead)

I think she got a few miles down the road, caught her breath and thought about what she was leaving behind, and more she thought, more she found that just running suddenly wasn't nearly as easy as it'd usually been in the past. She was leaving something behind, maybe something she decided she just couldn't live without.

And still, coming back exactly when she did was sheerest serendipity. Either way, getting all her ducks in a row or not caring about ducks or rows at all. the story's ending is basically the same in terms of emotional consonance.
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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by Ash » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:44 am

If Eli has the ability to project her thoughts into other people's minds she obviously has some power of telepathy. As shown in both the novel and film at the hospital reception and with Oskar. The issue as to why she didn't or chose not to act on this power at other times in the film is moot.
But I can't buy the idea that Eli simply stumbled across Oskar at precisely the right time in precisely the right place. For me that takes a far greater leap of logic than recognising the psychic ability she demonstrably possesses.

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by metoo » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:01 am

sauvin wrote:When she offered the advice, and then promised to help if needed, she was most likely simply relying on her ability to deal with unforeseen emergencies on the spot. Given that she's survived a couple of centuries, puny little thing that she is, it's fair to say she's probably very adept at knowing when to fight and when to run away. She had no idea what tomorrow might bring when she made that promise, and knew only that some kind of promise - a commitment - was needed. I interpret this knowledge as empathy; she felt his pain and his fear, and shared it.
I agree; especially to the highlighted part.
sauvin wrote:My own favourite fantasy as to why she left and then came back, apparently without saying anything to him beyond "buh bye", was that she needed to get a few ducks in a row before coming back and seeing if she couldn't persuade him to abscond with her. New apartment on the other side of town, maybe touch bases with a few shady characters to arrange for longer-term travel plans, that kind of thing. In this fantasy, her coming back when she did was the sheerest serendipity.
Personally, I prefer the idea that Eli at the moment of leaving intended it to be for good, and changed his mind later. However, when he made the decision to return, which I think was very sudden and ill-conceived - certainly against better knowledge - I think it's not out of question that he also considered asking Oskar a second time. But that's all in the novel - Eli never put the question in the film.
sauvin wrote:I think it more likely that she stayed as long as she could, enjoying an extremely rare sorta-kinda vacation from herself, and just ran when her survival demanded it. No thought, no looking back, just making as many tracks as she can as fast as she can. This is what two centuries of a semiferal existence, I imagine, would do to a child. In the novel, she muses that she has all kinds of money, she could just grab a cab and go wherever she wanted, but she DOESN'T WANT TO! "Why can't I have anything!?", she screams quietly.
I agree; again especially to the highlighted part.
sauvin wrote:I think she got a few miles down the road, caught her breath and thought about what she was leaving behind, and more she thought, more she found that just running suddenly wasn't nearly as easy as it'd usually been in the past. She was leaving something behind, maybe something she decided she just couldn't live without.
This is my view, too.
sauvin wrote:And still, coming back exactly when she did was sheerest serendipity. Either way, getting all her ducks in a row or not caring about ducks or rows at all. the story's ending is basically the same in terms of emotional consonance.
Yes. And, as you say, it doesen't matter if Eli planned to return or not. That the moment of return was when Oskar was in such dire circumstances was just serendipity.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: How Does Eli Know?

Post by dongregg » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:33 pm

Ingmar Bergman said, "No form of art goes beyond ordinary consciousness as film does, straight to our emotions, deep into the twilight room of the soul."

JAL and TA created an experience that encourages some of the best heads, hearts, and souls -- ever -- to co-create a reality in which Eli becomes many Elis, each one fully realized. For me, this is what it is like to be "infected": as the story lives and grows in each of us, nurtured by our love for Eli and immersed in the total experience of the film, we can choose to enter into and add to this "twilight room of the soul."

WTI makes it possible for us to be enriched by each other's acts of co-creation, and I am so grateful to be a part of it. :wub:
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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