Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

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Bloody Mary
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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by Bloody Mary » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:26 pm

jetboy wrote:
Bloody Mary wrote:Thesis M adds horror to the story (the idea that Oskar may turn out like Hakan) and I think it is more complex than Thesis K because it's not as obvious. But M destroys the film's sweet, hopeful side that everyone seems to love so much. So I subscribe to K just because I'm an idealist. You can't look at the shot of Eli and Oskar holding hands and stomach the theory that he's using Oskar.
I like this post.
Thanks. : )
"Do not go gentle into that good night . . . Rage, rage against the dying of the light." -Dylan Thomas

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dongregg
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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by dongregg » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:08 pm

Bloody Mary wrote:
jetboy wrote:
Bloody Mary wrote:I thought Hakan poured acid on his face to protect Eli. He told her that there were people who knew they lived together, so when he was caught the police could trace Eli.
True but why did he go to such lengths when whatever feelings he had didnt seem to be reciprocated by Eli? Who was Hakan and why was he so dedicated?
That's what I'm trying to figure out. In the book, it's pretty clear that Hakan hates himself and has for a long time. He was fired from his job as a teacher after a postal worker discovered his pornographic male (possibly child) porn, so he feels that he has no purpose and that Eli gives him one. I think that in the beginning of their relationship, s/he made him feel loved when he felt worthless. And he has an inclination to be attracted to children, so we can conclude that he feels he is in love with Eli. S/he stopped caring about him when he was pretty well ensnared (as far as I can tell), so his devotion is partly an attempt to earn back her love.
I am reminded of the great novel, The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter. Håkan is portrayed as being jealous as well as dedicated to Eli. Why did he fall so heavily in love with her? I think it may be in part because, when she found him, he was done for, finished. She took him out of the gutter and gave him one last chance. I think he may have seen Eli as just that, one last chance. There could be nothing after Eli but a short life as a wino and pedophile--degradation and death or prison. If so, then he must have been grateful. In another way, Eli was a dream come true--a child who wanted something from him rather than the other way around. Still, why the intensity of the devotion? I am reminded that the heart has a heart of its own. In other words, we can tick off the reasons that we see in the film (and novel), but we can't ultimately know why he was so deeply attached to her, even to the point of the painful disfigurement to throw off the police and, finally, giving her his life's blood. We can't know ultimately why we fall in love, why Håkan was so devoted, or why Oskar gave up everything to go off with Eli. And why do we ALL love Eli so much?
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by sauvin » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:56 pm

dongregg wrote:We can't know ultimately why we fall in love, why Håkan was so devoted, or why Oskar gave up everything to go off with Eli. And why do we ALL love Eli so much?
Can't speak for Haakan, can't get into that kind of mindset. Most of the rest of us probably love Eli because she's so cute, so young, so helpless in so many ways while so deadly in others, and ultimately so irretrievably tragic. I've a suspicion that the strength of our cathexis is commensurate with the depth of paradox she presents us.
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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by dongregg » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:58 pm

sauvin wrote:
dongregg wrote:We can't know ultimately why we fall in love, why Håkan was so devoted, or why Oskar gave up everything to go off with Eli. And why do we ALL love Eli so much?
Can't speak for Haakan, can't get into that kind of mindset. Most of the rest of us probably love Eli because she's so cute, so young, so helpless in so many ways while so deadly in others, and ultimately so irretrievably tragic. I've a suspicion that the strength of our cathexis is commensurate with the depth of paradox she presents us.
Interesting idea that the strength of cathexis could be commensurate with the depth of paradox. I note that TA cast the leads in the film to be two halves of the same person, so to speak. A long-held notion is that opposites attract, and a supporting idea is that we fall in love with a person who has the qualities that would complete us--IOW, someone who has the very qualities we lack. Classic example is good boy or girl running off with the bad girl or boy. Eli is strong; Oskar is weak. Eli kills to live; Oskar is squeemish. Eli has been around; Oskar is callow. Best of all, Eli lives utterly outside of society; Oskar is part of the warp and weft of Blackebery.

Eli as paradox reminds me that Eli also represents an unfathomable mystery, which could be too creepy if she were not so cute and vulnerable, as you pointed out.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by jetboy » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:34 am

Opposites are such a defining theme in this movie IMO. Other than the mentioned examples concerning Oskar and Eli themselves (their contrasting hair colors?), the movie itself has opposites. The biggest thing that grabbed me when I watched it is how love, many times represented by light in some religions or culture, grows despite such darkness. This theme also seems to be backed up visually by, as I said, Oskar and Eli's contrasting hair color, the black sky against the white snow and that shot of the red budding plant while it is snowing heavily.

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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by dongregg » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:43 am

jetboy wrote:Opposites are such a defining theme in this movie IMO. Other than the mentioned examples concerning Oskar and Eli themselves (their contrasting hair colors?), the movie itself has opposites. The biggest thing that grabbed me when I watched it is how love, many times represented by light in some religions or culture, grows despite such darkness. This theme also seems to be backed up visually by, as I said, Oskar and Eli's contrasting hair color, the black sky against the white snow and that shot of the red budding plant while it is snowing heavily.
Great contrasts, especially the snowstorm at night and the red buds in heavy snow. Others have pointed out, too, that for a film with a toned-down pallet, red and red-orange objects show up in most scenes. (I counted more than 70, I think it was). Eli (tragic but not evil) contrasts well with the bullies (just evil). Oskar so happy playing with his father but so disconnected from his mother.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by a_contemplative_life » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:28 am

dongregg wrote: And why do we ALL love Eli so much?
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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by dongregg » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:00 pm

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these sunken eyes and learn to see
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to be free

ACL, your new Beatles signature reminds me of the American Artist Morris Graves (d. 2001). Blind Bird:

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Last edited by dongregg on Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by jetboy » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:29 pm

dongregg wrote:
jetboy wrote:Opposites are such a defining theme in this movie IMO. Other than the mentioned examples concerning Oskar and Eli themselves (their contrasting hair colors?), the movie itself has opposites. The biggest thing that grabbed me when I watched it is how love, many times represented by light in some religions or culture, grows despite such darkness. This theme also seems to be backed up visually by, as I said, Oskar and Eli's contrasting hair color, the black sky against the white snow and that shot of the red budding plant while it is snowing heavily.
Great contrasts, especially the snowstorm at night and the red buds in heavy snow. Others have pointed out, too, that for a film with a toned-down pallet, red and red-orange objects show up in most scenes. (I counted more than 70, I think it was). Eli (tragic but not evil) contrasts well with the bullies (just evil). Oskar so happy playing with his father but so disconnected from his mother.
The use of colors in the movie interests me quite a bit, especially the colors of the clothing of the different characters. Im not sure if they represent any kind of meaning or are their to make the shot have the right tone. For instance Oskar always wears blues and browns while one bully will wear all browns while the other one all blues. Connie seems to wear black and red. A theory is that those that are from the town have clothes that fit the environment while Eli's clothes, which are quite horribly put together color wise and fit wise, show that shes an outsider.

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Re: Monster or Child--A Narrative Weakness in LTROI

Post by dongregg » Mon May 12, 2014 8:39 pm

jetboy wrote:The use of colors in the movie interests me quite a bit, especially the colors of the clothing of the different characters. Im not sure if they represent any kind of meaning or are their to make the shot have the right tone. For instance Oskar always wears blues and browns while one bully will wear all browns while the other one all blues. Connie seems to wear black and red. A theory is that those that are from the town have clothes that fit the environment while Eli's clothes, which are quite horribly put together color wise and fit wise, show that shes an outsider.
Yeah, that seems about right for Eli--unsocialized, almost feral at first. Definitely an outsider, and not just relative to Blackeberg, but an outsider to the human race. Minimum clothing to avoid attraction, no sense of style or gender. She gets better--the more Eli and Oskar bond, the more stylish and feminine she dresses. She consciously changes into the red sweater, and she is wearing a cute blouse and navy bellbottoms when she rings Oskar's door bell. (You get a glimpse of the bellbottoms when she hands Oskar her bloody clothes.)
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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