zomg! the girl is so not a boy!

[Dragonclaws]

Some people are just in denial.

One of the saddest posts I read was a theory Eli shapeshifted her privates to test Oskar's character. "Well, if Eli can grow wings, why can't she change her vagina?" Pathetic.

That's really reaching, but it did occur to me that if Eli can grow wings, claws, and monkey-like feet... why not just... heal the area?

[Ash]

A plausible explanation is that vampires can heal themselves as vampires, but Eli was not a vampire when he was castrated, so pre-vampire injuries remain.
JAL displays a rather flippant attitude to minor details like this.
If he wrapped up all the loose ends and tied everything up with a neat bow for us, there would be few posts on this forum.
Doubt is good.

[Ingenting-ing]

Seems to me when we talk about Eli as boy/girl, the question of what is a boy, what is a girl is always in the background. If gender is just about genitals, then sure, the peek scene is a real game-changer. If gender is something which can be chosen, more about how a person feels and presents himself/herself to the world, then Eli could be hung like John Holmes and be no less a girl.

My (subjective) take is that, forgetting about the book, Lina's Eli is all-girl. I struggle to find any specifically masculine gestures in the entire film. Eli's toughness is exceptional, but doesn't strike me as specifically masculine (and I do spend a lot of time with girls in this age range). So with the knowledge that Eli isn't physiologically a girl, trans-girl works for me (and apparently for Oskar as well. The peek scene gives him something else unusual about Eli to let in, but he doesn't react like it's a 180-degree reversal in Eli's gender. He continues to relate to her in much the same wonderful way as before).

OTOH, I'm not really disagreeing with you, bore. While I think you can make an argument that "Eli is a girl", there's still strong argument and weak argument...then there's the really air-head argument, which is what you seem to object to.

[bore]

That's really reaching, but it did occur to me that if Eli can grow wings, claws, and monkey-like feet... why not just... heal the area?

This assumes that Eli considers that area to be broken. If Eli considers it as something that defines him as he is then any change would be pretty pointless.
There is also nothing that suggests that any change Eli does to his body is permanent. The growing of claws and wings could very well be something that the vampire side considers as damage/deviation from the state Eli was in while turned and could very well try to revert the change when Eli is no longer concentrating on it.

OTOH, I'm not really disagreeing with you, bore. While I think you can make an argument that "Eli is a girl", there's still strong argument and weak argument...then there's the really air-head argument, which is what you seem to object to.

Yes, I didn't really expect any serious discussion to take place in this thread, I just wanted to vent my temporary irritation in a place where it could be appreciated.

[Ash]

Eli could be hung like John Holmes and be no less a girl.

I agree Eli identifies himself, and presents himself, as female.
Tactically, that is possibly something learnt over Eli's long lifetime.
Better to acquire prey.
Better to acquire helpers.
Go with what works.
If Eli sees himself as female, then Eli is female, regardless of physiology.
But does s/he really make that sexual distinction?
All Eli sees himself as, is just as Eli.
Eli doesn't try to categorise Eli.
Should we try to?

[Ingenting-ing]

Yes, I didn't really expect any serious discussion to take place in this thread, I just wanted to vent my temporary irritation in a place where it could be appreciated.

That's one thing I love about this forum, the way discussion can pivot wildly from completely silly to deadly serious and back again.

I agree Eli identifies himself, and presents himself, as female.
Tactically, that is possibly something learnt over Eli's long lifetime.
Better to acquire prey.
Better to acquire helpers.
Go with what works.

Agreed. OTOH, once you get used to something, guess that becomes your identity. (When you get right down to it, that's probably how most of us define our gender -- it's what we're accustomed to.)

But does s/he really make that sexual distinction?
All Eli sees himself as, is just as Eli.
Eli doesn't try to categorise Eli.
Should we try to?

I love this interpretation *in theory* -- feels kind of utopian. Not male, not female, just person. Unfortunately, to my sensibilities it doesn't match what I see. Lina, with her superpowers of girliness, completely fails at androgyny. Does work better in the book, I think.

[Ash]

A pretty boy, playing the part of a boy, pretending to be a girl, might have worked better. Who knows.
Was Lina too feminine to be believable as a boy?
I don't know.

[crazychristina]

Agreed. OTOH, once you get used to something, guess that becomes your identity. (When you get right down to it, that's probably how most of us define our gender -- it's what we're accustomed to.)

But does s/he really make that sexual distinction?
All Eli sees himself as, is just as Eli.
Eli doesn't try to categorise Eli.
Should we try to?

I love this interpretation *in theory* -- feels kind of utopian. Not male, not female, just person. Unfortunately, to my sensibilities it doesn't match what I see. Lina, with her superpowers of girliness, completely fails at androgyny. Does work better in the book, I think.

Um, have to disagree here about 'what you're accustomed to' defining gender. After all we have two TS people currently active on the board here. The combination of vampirism and castration of pre-pubescent boy is an interesting one, because Eli would not need genitals of any description for any bodily function. So, being 'nothing' in terms of human categorization actually leaves Eli free to define a very personal identity, except that he/she doesn't engage in many significant relationships.

A while ago I posted about Andrej Pejic, a boy with the face of a very attractive girl. Andrej claims his gender is fluid, some days he feels more masculine, other days more feminine. Something to think about.

[drakkar]

Was Lina too feminine to be believable as a boy?

When running away from the "then I'll help you" scene - yes. That running gait nailed film Eli as a girl to me. Elsewhere? No.

[Ingenting-ing]

Um, have to disagree here about 'what you're accustomed to' defining gender.

I did put a "most" in there. Actually, was being autobiographic on this: I identify as male. Why? Well, I've spent 45 years presenting that way, most of that time never felt like there was another option (and then too old, too lazy to give it much thought!) Now my gender identity is pretty wedged-in to my being. So if 45 years can do that to me, then what would, oh, a century or two do to Eli? She may have started presenting as female because she had no choice (kind of like I had no real choice to present male), but habit is a powerful thing. Do anything long enough, it becomes part of you. Not that she couldn't change course...

After all we have two TS people currently active on the board here.

There's *got* to be more than two.

The combination of vampirism and castration of pre-pubescent boy is an interesting one, because Eli would not need genitals of any description for any bodily function. So, being 'nothing' in terms of human categorization actually leaves Eli free to define a very personal identity, except that he/she doesn't engage in many significant relationships.

Yeah, I also think that's cool. Eli hasn't been very lucky in life. Doesn't have many freedoms or options. But her physiological genderlessness is kind of enviable -- there's one very unusual freedom she *does* have: the ability to choose/define gender without fussing about body issues.