12 year old love

[gattoparde59]

I don't know about "real love" or 12 years olds falling in love. I do know that children need to be loved. This is a basic human need. It is expressed differently by children and children don't necessarily understand all of it, but the need is there so yes 12 year olds can love each other. This is especially important for Oskar and Eli because they are very lonely, even abandoned children.

[DarkGuyver]

I don't know about "real love" or 12 years olds falling in love. I do know that children need to be loved. This is a basic human need. It is expressed differently by children and children don't necessarily understand all of it, but the need is there so yes 12 year olds can love each other. This is especially important for Oskar and Eli because they are very lonely, even abandoned children.

While agree with what you are saying, I wouldn't go as far as to say that Oskar wasn't love. His mother does care deeply for him, as does his father to a certain point so he isn't neccessary unloved. He is just a little lonely since he is a constant target of bullies.

[sauvin]

While agree with what you are saying, I wouldn't go as far as to say that Oskar wasn't love. His mother does care deeply for him, as does his father to a certain point so he isn't neccessary unloved. He is just a little lonely since he is a constant target of bullies.

Rather more than that, I should think. When Eli came knocking on his door, his mother had been away, and Oskar had been eating in front of the TV. The kids had enough time to have the bleeding out, the "be me a little" and the shower before his mother came home. It's not said outright, but this scene implies he's accustomed to spending time at home alone.

The novel isn't a great deal more explicit in this. I don't remember it mentioning anywhere what Oskar's mother does for a living. His father, on the other hand, is a disaster. Oskar is the child of an alcoholic, and this will probably have many long-term implications on his emotional health.

What's more than just being away a lot, though, is his mother's reaction when he comes home after having struck Conny in the ear with a big stick. Her whole reaction was about what the neighbours or school will think about her. There was almost no concern for Oskar at all, no questions about why he did what he did, if he was OK, none of that kind of thing. If there's ever been an indication that Oskar is on his own in many important ways, this is it.

I wouldn't agree that Oskar is unloved, per se, but it's easy for me to see why he might make such a claim.

[DarkGuyver]

Rather more than that, I should think. When Eli came knocking on his door, his mother had been away, and Oskar had been eating in front of the TV. The kids had enough time to have the bleeding out, the "be me a little" and the shower before his mother came home. It's not said outright, but this scene implies he's accustomed to spending time at home alone.

The novel isn't a great deal more explicit in this. I don't remember it mentioning anywhere what Oskar's mother does for a living. His father, on the other hand, is a disaster. Oskar is the child of an alcoholic, and this will probably have many long-term implications on his emotional health.

What's more than just being away a lot, though, is his mother's reaction when he comes home after having struck Conny in the ear with a big stick. Her whole reaction was about what the neighbours or school will think about her. There was almost no concern for Oskar at all, no questions about why he did what he did, if he was OK, none of that kind of thing. If there's ever been an indication that Oskar is on his own in many important ways, this is it.

I wouldn't agree that Oskar is unloved, per se, but it's easy for me to see why he might make such a claim.

You make a very interesting point, sauvin.

[drakkar]

The novel isn't a great deal more explicit in this. I don't remember it mentioning anywhere what Oskar's mother does for a living. His father, on the other hand, is a disaster. Oskar is the child of an alcoholic, and this will probably have many long-term implications on his emotional health.

These few lines in the beginning in the book - when Oskar is home alone saturday morning looking at a photo from his christening - they say it all. His father is too immature for any marriage, and his mother, well, Oskar is her project. Her success or defeat.

Just before that, we learn Oskar get the ads he is handing out saturday morning, but has until tuesday to accomplish the work. However he does it at once. He likes to get things done, without hesitating. When it's not suppressed by someone else, that is. So later on, released from his suppressors, perhaps he just follows his nature of just go for it when he leaves with the one he loves.

[metoo]

These few lines in the beginning in the book - when Oskar is home alone saturday morning looking at a photo from his christening - they say it all. His father is too immature for any marriage, and his mother, well, Oskar is her project. Her success or defeat.

Well, this is the film thread, but still: Yes, this is a very important clue to the relationship between Oskar and his mother. Oskar is apparently aware that his mother's possessive attitude isn't right, it shouldn't be so. She guards him too much, I believe that's why he cannot go to her with his problems.

His father, on the other hand, is a playmate but not a confident, he never mentions Oskar's problems although being well aware of their existence. Finally, Mr Àvila, who is a perceptive and good-hearted man behind his harsh façade, still cannot help Oskar. His solution, hard exercise, may very well be good for getting rid of frustration and anger, but that is not what Oskar really needs. So in the end Oskar is alone.

But then Eli returns.

[gattoparde59]

drakkar wrote:
These few lines in the beginning in the book - when Oskar is home alone saturday morning looking at a photo from his christening - they say it all. His father is too immature for any marriage, and his mother, well, Oskar is her project. Her success or defeat.
Well, this is the film thread, but still: Yes, this is a very important clue to the relationship between Oskar and his mother. Oskar is apparently aware that his mother's possessive attitude isn't right, it shouldn't be so. She guards him too much, I believe that's why he cannot go to her with his problems.

In the movie Oskar's isolation is even more extreme than in the book, where other children are at least mentioned. In the movie he has no friends his own age. None. Oskar's relationship with his parents has been discussed quite a bit. The telling scene with his mother is when he comes home with the cut on his face. Mom accepts his version of events, even though her face tells us she suspects otherwise. She does not want to know. So much for the overprotective Mom. Eli's response to the cut on the face is very different.

I like Drakkar's point that Oskar is not passive by nature. Given a chance he would rather do something, anything other than rot in Blackeberg, which is what the adult characters seem resigned to. Oskar wants to "break away" (to paraphrase another coming of age movie) and that includes his confining mother.

[lombano]

In the movie Oskar's isolation is even more extreme than in the book, where other children are at least mentioned. In the movie he has no friends his own age. None. Oskar's relationship with his parents has been discussed quite a bit. The telling scene with his mother is when he comes home with the cut on his face. Mom accepts his version of events, even though her face tells us she suspects otherwise. She does not want to know. So much for the overprotective Mom. Eli's response to the cut on the face is very different.

Exactly. The mother's not really overprotective; she fusses over things like the hat and so on, but that's it. Both parents are there for Oskar provided it's no trouble for them, that no real demands are made of them, that it's all fun and games - they're there for him provided he doesn't interfere with his father's drinking, or mess with Yvonne's image as a good mother, or require anyone to have potentially difficult or uncomfortable conversations. Actually, it just struck me that just about all of Oskar's connections with anyone else save Eli and the bullies are of the fair-weather sort - both parents in both book and film, film Avila (he saw that Conny was going to push Oskar into the hole and that Oskar only struck in self-defence - book Avila is different, he actually tries, but fails), Tommy. Or, another way of putting it, they're all going through the motions - of being a good parent, being a friend, etc. Even Andreas is going trough the motions of being a bully.

[a_contemplative_life]

It also seemed to me that there was a dynamic whereby Mom wanted Oskar's Dad to do the heavy lifting with regard to disciplining Oskar, yet distrusted him to do so. In this regard, it is probably fair to conclude that at some level, the mother knows that both she and her ex-husband are doing Oskar a disservice when it comes to parenting him properly.

[metoo]

It also seemed to me that there was a dynamic whereby Mom wanted Oskar's Dad to do the heavy lifting with regard to disciplining Oskar, yet distrusted him to do so. In this regard, it is probably fair to conclude that at some level, the mother knows that both she and her ex-husband are doing Oskar a disservice when it comes to parenting him properly.

Yes, book-mom shies away from speaking with Oskar about him hitting Jonny (film Conny) with a stick, hard enough for Jonny to need to go to hospital, possibly disabling him for life. However, later she does try to speak to Oskar about the fire, but then Oskar lies to her, and this obvious lie comes between them, creating a chasm that apparently wasn't there earlier.

It might, however, be argued that the separating process started already when Oskar chose to go out in the yard to be with Eli, instead of waiting for the Notecrackers TV show with his mother as he had used to. Maybe the harmonic relationship with his mother, with late evening hot chocolate and buns, was to a rather high degree because Oskar didn't have a choice.