Was it love?

For discussion of John Ajvide Lindqvist's novel Lilla Stjärna
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lombano
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Was it love?

Post by lombano » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:24 am

I don't think this has been discussed much - were Theres and Teresa truly in love, was it one-sided, or was it something else? Were they even capable of love?

My own answer is that I do think Theres, in her own twisted way, loved Teresa, but Teresa did not really love Theres. First, I don't believe Theres to have been insect-like - incapable of any real emotions, or at least incapable of affection. That she acts to protect Jerry signals some genuine concern for him, and likewise even Teresa's first murder, in a very twisted way, seems intended to help her - to direct her darkness against others instead of turning it inwards. Of course, it's one thing to argue Theres is capable of love and another to argue she loves Teresa - but Theres is no liar and she tells Teresa she is more special to her than any of the other girls, and their holding hands, given that Theres isn't keen on physical affection and had refused earlier, has to signal Teresa is special to her.
On the other hand, though Teresa is powerfully drawn towards Theres, it seems to me more like an obsession rather than anything that could be called love. She fears being separated from Theres, but there is never any desire to make Theres happy - it's about what Teresa wants for herself. She wants to be the special one in Theres' eyes but she seems to care little about Theres herself, about her welfare. I don't think Teresa was actually capable of love - at least, she never loves anyone in the novel.
Another point is that one could argue, given that both girls have hit puberty, the fact that there seems to be no physical dimension to their relationship suggests that their relationship is not about romantic love. However, in their particular case, given neither girl seems to ever feel any sexual attraction for anyone else, they seem to both be asexual and thus a lack of sexual interest in each other has no bearing on whether their relationship is of a romantic nature.
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Re: Was it love?

Post by EEA » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:22 am

Yes, both love each other in a strange and twisted way. I thought Teresa did love Theres In her own way, according to what love means to her. In fact that is why she kills Johannes to seal the deal and commit herself to Theres. I think that she is the turning point for her to show Theres that she is ready to do anything for that love.
I agree that Theres is not a liar and that she does love Teresa and she proves it at the end when she calls out to her instead of one of the other girls from the group.

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Re: Was it love?

Post by Nightrider » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:25 am

Even towards the end of the novel I did not sense any real emotions from Theres. Other than her extraordinary capacity for violence and a gift for manipulation Theres remains an enigma all the way up to the book's conclusion. I never understood her aberrant motivations, what made her tick or why she seemed so unearthly. Who was she? Why was she?
As far as Teresa goes, she was just a damaged person in search of someone to follow. Her tragedy was the discovery of Theres in the very beginning. Perhaps Teresa thought that there was something more between them, when in reality she was just an early disciple and a blunt weapon simply aiding in Theres' bloody and aimless quest which eventually and most probably would end in tragedy.

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Re: Was it love?

Post by lombano » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:48 am

EEA wrote:Yes, both love each other in a strange and twisted way. I thought Teresa did love Theres In her own way, according to what love means to her. In fact that is why she kills Johannes to seal the deal and commit herself to Theres. I think that she is the turning point for her to show Theres that she is ready to do anything for that love.
Come to think of it, how Teresa defines love is pretty much the same way as Haakan does. Sure, there's no lust in it in Teresa's case and so forth, but for her too it's a willingness to lay your life at the feet of another. Except that, much like Haakan with Eli, she sees no value in a life without Theres, and thus being willing to die rather than be separated from Theres has no value because it is not a true sacrifice. Giving up something you don't want is not a sacrifice.
Nightrider wrote: Even towards the end of the novel I did not sense any real emotions from Theres. Other than her extraordinary capacity for violence and a gift for manipulation Theres remains an enigma all the way up to the book's conclusion. I never understood her aberrant motivations, what made her tick or why she seemed so unearthly. Who was she? Why was she?
I don't think "why" can really be answered. However Theres's behaviour does to me reveal some emotions. For example, she truthfully tells Jerry she has no intention of killing him. She ensures he's safe from the Wolves, which she doesn't do for anyone else. She had killed Leila and Lennart, though - why the difference? I think perhaps she sensed that Lennart had only ever used her for his own selfish purposes, whereas Jerry had in his own way tried to actually help her, had cared about her rather than how well she could sing.
I think, apart from her fear and hatred of adults, Theres was driven by a desire to help troubled girls - girls with whose darkness she could identify - turn their destructiveness outwards instead of inwards. Crudely, murder instead of suicide.
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Re: Was it love?

Post by Nightrider » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:24 pm

lombano wrote: Theres's behaviour does to me reveal some emotions. For example, she truthfully tells Jerry she has no intention of killing him. She ensures he's safe from the Wolves, which she doesn't do for anyone else. She had killed Leila and Lennart, though - why the difference? I think perhaps she sensed that Lennart had only ever used her for his own selfish purposes, whereas Jerry had in his own way tried to actually help her, had cared about her rather than how well she could sing.
I
It's a strange dichotomy. Jerry isn't murdered because Theres doesn't feel threatened by him(perhaps?), but she kills Leila, who though does not pose a physical threat allowed Lennart to continue the "abuse". So Leila's death was more of a revenge killing, whereas is Lennart's death is both guided by revenge and self liberation...By that token Jerry should have been killed as well since he had a part in the whole conspiracy regarding Theres' early imprisonment...However, had this happened he wouldn't be able to assist Theres (as assistant and a guardian figure) in the latter part of the novel. This makes me wonder whether Theres somehow knew or sensed that Jerry will be useful somewhere down the road unlike Leila and Lennart...This to me sounds like somebody being incredibly pragmatic...almost like a computer that can see the future. Hardly analogous to emotions.
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Re: Was it love?

Post by gattoparde59 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:04 pm

Nightrider wrote:It's a strange dichotomy. Jerry isn't murdered because Theres doesn't feel threatened by him(perhaps?), but she kills Leila, who though does not pose a physical threat allowed Lennart to continue the "abuse". So Leila's death was more of a revenge killing, whereas is Lennart's death is both guided by revenge and self liberation...By that token Jerry should have been killed as well since he had a part in the whole conspiracy regarding Theres' early imprisonment...However, had this happened he wouldn't be able to assist Theres (as assistant and a guardian figure) in the latter part of the novel. This makes me wonder whether Theres somehow knew or sensed that Jerry will be useful somewhere down the road unlike Leila and Lennart...This to me sounds like somebody being incredibly pragmatic...almost like a computer that can see the future. Hardly analogous to
emotions.
It has occurred to me before that Jerry is there as a plot vehicle to get Theres out of the basement and out into mainstream society. When Jerry gets off easy is when he goes off with Paris, leaving Theres completely unattended and on the way to "Sing Along at Skansen." If Jerry escapes murder I think it has more to do with the author taking a liking to him, than it is Theres.

As to the nature of the relationship that develops between Theres and Teresa I would have to go back and reread the novel. How they relate to each other is described in very intimate detail at least from Teresa's point of view. If nothing else this is a very intense relationship that develops between these two very isolated characters. I keep thinking of Doc Holliday in Tombstone:
Turkey Creek Jack Johnson: Why you doin' this, Doc?
Doc Holliday: Because Wyatt Earp is my friend.
Turkey Creek Jack Johnson: Friend? Hell, I got lots of friends.
Doc Holliday: ...I don't.

I'll break open the story and tell you what is there. Then, like the others that have fallen out onto the sand, I will finish with it, and the wind will take it away.

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Re: Was it love?

Post by PeteMork » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:34 pm

gattoparde59 wrote:...It has occurred to me before that Jerry is there as a plot vehicle to get Theres out of the basement and out into mainstream society. When Jerry gets off easy is when he goes off with Paris, leaving Theres completely unattended and on the way to "Sing Along at Skansen." If Jerry escapes murder I think it has more to do with the author taking a liking to him, than it is Theres.
What an interesting idea! In retrospect, I think you may be right about this. JAL presented Jerry as an absolute ass at the beginning of the novel, and I found myself hoping he would be another of Theres's unwitting victims. I was quite surprised by his 'change of heart' as the novel progressed. It would be interesting to get JALs input here as to why Jerry's character took this different path. :think:
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Re: Was it love?

Post by intrige » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:02 pm

Remember the "red smoke"?: Leila once explained to Theres where love comes from, the brain. The head. So, Theres, in her twisted mind wanted to find that love. So she opened their heads. And finds the red smoke, that maybe in a way helps her getting "better". Later in the book Theres makes Theresa do the same thing in order to feel better. After that party that went.. Really bad.. When Jerry finds her in the stairs, or whatever.. Theres claims that she didn't find any love. I don't know if that is a longing for knowing what love is..
After they had flied from the house, she and Jerry. We see that Theres tries to help people, that girl that tried to steal. The man behind the counter yelled at her in private, and Theres was convinced that the man hurt the girl. When that didn't happen, Theres went out after the girl, and spoke to her about: Not letting the big people win, and we'll get back at them. I think it is both revenge and wanting to help out. I would dare to say that Theres aint a mean person, she is just crazy, really crazy. Theres doesn't like body contact at all. When,, oh what was his name? He who ran a music company, who tried to "rape" Theres. Theres didn't understand anything, she dressed off in front of him, and when he got.. Close.. She grabbed a champagne bottle, crushed it and started hitting the man with it, he was too close. In around the middle of the book I suppose, Theres clearly tells Theresa that she doesn't want to be held or anything. By the end, Theres grabs Theresa's hand. I don't think there were much romantic feelings involved. Heck, I as a girl can gladly hold my best girlfriends hands, or hug them. It doesn't mean I have a crush on them, but I am close to them. I think Theres and Theresa were close friends, by the end.. And Theres found Theresa special.
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Re: Was it love?

Post by lombano » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:34 pm

gattoparde59 wrote:If Jerry escapes murder I think it has more to do with the author taking a liking to him, than it is Theres.
But JAL could've saved Jerry any number of ways - the point is that the way he saved him was by Theres making sure he was out of harm's way.
Nightrider wrote:By that token Jerry should have been killed as well since he had a part in the whole conspiracy regarding Theres' early imprisonment.
But he had less involvement, and not from the beginning. And when he was actually in charge of Theres, he did what he could to get her to lead a more normal life. Unlike Leila and Lennart at first, Jerry dijd not really have the option of handing over Theres - he was right, they would've locked her up and thrown away the key - which would've been for the best, but not what was in Theres's interests.
intrige wrote:Heck, I as a girl can gladly hold my best girlfriends hands, or hug them. It doesn't mean I have a crush on them, but I am close to them.
Yes, but you're not Theres - Theres has a clear aversion to physical contact with others that the vast majority of people don't have, at least not to that degree. For her to actually want to hold hands is very significant.
intrige wrote:Theres, in her twisted mind wanted to find that love. So she opened their heads.
Hinting that she never felt loved by Leila and Lennart, but that Jerry, for starters, was different. Unlike Teresa, she never hurts anyone who believes loves or likes her.
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Re: Was it love?

Post by Nightrider » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:49 pm

lombano wrote: Hinting that she never felt loved by Leila and Lennart, but that Jerry, for starters, was different. Unlike Teresa, she never hurts anyone who believes loves or likes her.
This reminds me of the great LTROI debate on whether Eli reaction towards Oskar comes out of need or out of love.
I just can't see Theres other than a calculating little monster who uses everyone to achieve her nebulous goal. ..and since the novel is obviously a cautionary tale of dangers of idolatry I see Teresa and the other girls as nothing more than followers blinded by insane devotion. Ultimate groupies...They are there for Theres.....and nothing else. There is no love, only opportunity.
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