At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teresa?

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intrige
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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by intrige » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:50 pm

Well I ahve been looking through the book few times just to understand T&T's actions. For example Theres clearly looked for love, then she descovered this red smoke and got stronger by that. What made me not let the sympathy go was because that was how I viewed it from the start. And when Theres wanted Teresa to kill someone, it was because Theres in her own twisted way wanted to help Teresa to feel better.

At first when I read Teresa killing Johannes I was really disapointed because I thought he was an interesting caracter, also as a child. And I didn't want him to die at all. Then I thought: Why did she do that? But as I looked at it again, but also got some viewer points from the forum (it is a great help) I figured she did it to not just prepere herself for the fallowing event at Skansen. But also to prove to herself that she actually can do it, and not chicken out. Because if she could kill someone she cared for, she could kill anyone. And just anyone was what she was going to do.

I still cared for them as they ran to the hole in the fence with the wolves, and since Theres didn't like touching at all, it was a bit moving to read that Theres actually made the move herself and took Teresa's hand..

SO I didn't lose sympathy. :D An amazing book! Glad to read your view on it John. Always a smile on my face after seing you words here on the forum. So much respect that you actually care enough to read and write to us. Probably your most devoted fans :D (I think we are at least :roll: )
Last edited by intrige on Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by EEA » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:22 pm

The book does have a happy ending. Both are together at the end. I do remember that as I read the book it was hard for me to accept that it could be a love story. I ask myself can this two girls feel love? Yes they do in a twisted way since they decided to go through with their plan at the concert to the end.

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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by gattoparde59 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:49 pm

a_contemplative_life wrote:JAL's post made me reach for my dictionary.

Empathy - the ability to share someone else’s feelings or experiences by imagining what it would be like to be in that person’s situation: He loves children and has a certain empathy with them.

Sympathy - a feeling or expression of understanding and caring for someone else who is suffering or has problems that have caused unhappiness: When Robert died, I sent a letter of sympathy to his wife.
I think it was JAL's first novel that made me reach for the dictionary, and this is what I came up with.

sym•pa•thy
Pronunciation:
\ˈsim-pə-thē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural sym•pa•thies
Etymology:
Latin sympathia, from Greek sympatheia, from sympathēs having common feelings, sympathetic, from syn- + pathos feelings, emotion, experience — more at PATHOS
Date:
1579
1 a: an affinity, association, or relationship between persons or things wherein whatever affects one similarly affects the other b: mutual or parallel susceptibility or a condition brought about by it c: unity or harmony in action or effect <every part is in complete sympathy with the scheme as a whole — Edwin Benson>2 a: inclination to think or feel alike : emotional or intellectual accord <in sympathy with their goals> b: feeling of loyalty : tendency to favor or support <republican sympathies>3 a: the act or capacity of entering into or sharing the feelings or interests of another b: the feeling or mental state brought about by such sensitivity <have sympathy for the poor>4: the correlation existing between bodies capable of communicating their vibrational energy to one another through some medium
synonyms see ATTRACTION, PITY
(From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictonary)

I liked that definition because it described the relationship between Oskar and Eli. This is the way I see the love between Theres and Teresa as well, in answer to your question on that subject.

I'll break open the story and tell you what is there. Then, like the others that have fallen out onto the sand, I will finish with it, and the wind will take it away.

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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by PeteMork » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:21 pm

johnajvide wrote:With all that said, on an important level I still consider Little Star to be a love story with a happy end. I think this sentiment infuses the whole story an makes it appealing to some, revolting to others. Fine with me, as long as it touches you somehow.
I saw many indications of the love between them, but I felt they were seldom on the same page. As heart-felt as it may have been, they seemed to direct their love just past one another, never quite connecting. Until the very end, as they approached the wolves.
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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by drakkar » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:49 pm

gattoparde59 wrote:
a_contemplative_life wrote:JAL's post made me reach for my dictionary.

Empathy - the ability to share someone else’s feelings or experiences by imagining what it would be like to be in that person’s situation: He loves children and has a certain empathy with them.

Sympathy - a feeling or expression of understanding and caring for someone else who is suffering or has problems that have caused unhappiness: When Robert died, I sent a letter of sympathy to his wife.
I think it was JAL's first novel that made me reach for the dictionary, and this is what I came up with.

sym•pa•thy
Pronunciation:
\ˈsim-pə-thē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural sym•pa•thies
Etymology:
Latin sympathia, from Greek sympatheia, from sympathēs having common feelings, sympathetic, from syn- + pathos feelings, emotion, experience — more at PATHOS
Date:
1579
1 a: an affinity, association, or relationship between persons or things wherein whatever affects one similarly affects the other b: mutual or parallel susceptibility or a condition brought about by it c: unity or harmony in action or effect <every part is in complete sympathy with the scheme as a whole — Edwin Benson>2 a: inclination to think or feel alike : emotional or intellectual accord <in sympathy with their goals> b: feeling of loyalty : tendency to favor or support <republican sympathies>3 a: the act or capacity of entering into or sharing the feelings or interests of another b: the feeling or mental state brought about by such sensitivity <have sympathy for the poor>4: the correlation existing between bodies capable of communicating their vibrational energy to one another through some medium
synonyms see ATTRACTION, PITY
(From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictonary)

I liked that definition because it described the relationship between Oskar and Eli. This is the way I see the love between Theres and Teresa as well, in answer to your question on that subject.
Perhaps not expect language accuracy like that from me. In Norwegian, yes, in English, no way! ;)
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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by danielma » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:15 pm

I don't know if I did loose Sympathy for either Teresa and Theres...but then again I don't know how much sympathy I had for them to begin with....I had Empathy for them and I found both of them fascinating the entire way through.

Teresa is the perfect example of that Empathy that I felt. I was fascinated by Teresa throughout the entire novel. There were some moments where I did feel sympathy for her earlier on in the novel. I mean how can one not relate to the motions of watching a best friend, who you feel conflicted and uncertain emotions for, start dating someone else. So I did feel sympathy for the emotions that she goes through earlier on in the novel. But as the novel goes on that sympathy turned more so into empathy. I think there is no better example of this then the death of Johannes...

I've always felt that the death of Johannes is the true birth of Urd. I find it funny that JAL foreshadows these events by having Johannes say to Teresa that one day they will grow old and die together (not the exact quote but it is something along those lines)...and yet that is exactly what happens when Teresa kills Johannes...it is that relationship dying, and it is the death of Teresa followed by the true birth of Urd. Weirdly enough I felt a sense of empathy for these events. Like there was a part of me that understood why Teresa does this, it is the final thing she needs to empower herself to commit her final acts. It is her letting go of all her past ties and freeing herself to do what it is she must do.

In a sense I can feel empathy for this, because this is something that I think most people struggle to acheive in their lives...granted without the mass murder part :)...It is that sense of letting go of your history or past and completely freeing yourself and that sense of empowerment that I felt empathy for with regards to Teresa.

But I don't know if I feel complete sympathy for her. I felt Sympathy for Oskar and Eli...but with Theres and Teresa I would say it was more so Empathy...which is not to say I didn't like these characters, because I did...I liked these characters for the Anti Heroes that they are...and I could somewhat empathize with their actions in a weird way...but full on sympathy was a little harder...especially as the novel progressed (at least in terms of Teresa)

Even though I liked these characters and was fascinated by the inner workings of these characters...I would say it was more Empathy then Sympathy that I felt for them.
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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by Nightrider » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:22 am

"Little Star" and it's two main protagonists are a part of the cautionary tale...How not to be...
One can debate the complexity of inner workings of T and T all day long, but In the end our actions define who we are.
I never for a second felt any kind of sympathy or empathy for both girls if they are to be judged by the way they are presented on the pages of the book. Theres, from the start was always less than human...almost an alien creature. She remains an enigma untill the end of the novel. Teresa is a deeply damaged person who instead of trying to improve her situation choses darkness instead of light. I could not even remotely, relate to either of these characters on the basis of their grisly accomplishments.
So ultimately, the only thing girls achieved was excellence in mass murder.
Once the line is crossed there is no redemption.
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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by danielma » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:00 am

Nightrider wrote: I could not even remotely, relate to either of these characters on the basis of their grisly accomplishments.
Their grisly acomplishments wasn't what I related too rather that was what kind of repelled me about them (meant in a good way) and made me loose any of hint of sympathy that I had for the both of them at the beginning. I never hated T & T, yet I never felt sympathy for them in the same way that I did for say Oskar and Eli...Its funny, I read JAL's post on the 2nd page, and what he says about not making their motive "Vengeance inclinced" is rather interesting...

I know I sound like a Broken Record, but Teresa really does fascinate me as a character, to the point where I still think that it may just be the best character that JAL has ever written, yeah I know that's quite a strech considering his line up of characters, but there is something so deeply fascinating about Teresa that has stuck with me ever since reading the book.

I think what it is, and what I decided it is for me, is that sense of enpowerment that she gains is kind of what I could find marginally relatable. Granted I don't endorse the actions she ends up taking. Said it time and time again but the death of Johannes really was hard for me to read and incredibly powerful and whilst that was hard for me to read, I still kind of got the idea behind it...that it is essentially someone cutting all past ties and choosing love (albeit a very pervese, obsessive and destructive love)

It isn't so much her actions that I relate too rather the means of her gaining enpowerment...

If that makes sense (I hope it does...otherwise I'm a crazy man :lol: )
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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by lombano » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:45 am

danielma wrote: If that makes sense (I hope it does...otherwise I'm a crazy man :lol: )
Though this be madness, yet there is method in it. I agree, their crimes are largely about severing all ties with humanity (and therefore all obligations) and about empowerment (murder seems to relieve them temporarily of a kind of deep-seated fear).
Nightrider wrote:Teresa is a deeply damaged person who instead of trying to improve her situation choses darkness instead of light.
Agreed. Teresa was completely repulsive to me by the end, though I found her sympathetic at first (all sympathy evaporated when she murdered the shopkeeper).
Nightrider wrote:Theres, from the start was always less than human...almost an alien creature.
Almost alien, yes. But I never saw her as less than human - definitely abnormal, damaged, yes.
Nightrider wrote:Once the line is crossed there is no redemption.
Yes, I too see them as beyond redemption.
Nightrider wrote:"Little Star" and it's two main protagonists are a part of the cautionary tale...How not to be...
I don't see any obvious cautionary tale in that there is a story of twists and turns rather than a single mistake that made them what they are. You could view the story as a sequence of situations that couldn't end well (though they end in just about the worst way possible), but that make sit hard to derive a clear moral, apart from something very general like 'murder is wrong.'
Nightrider wrote: One can debate the complexity of inner workings of T and T all day long, but In the end our actions define who we are.


I think some importance must be assigned to intention - I had toyed with posting something on this in the thread about LTROI and evil, but I might as well post it here. To explain it with examples, I'm thinking of Arthur Miller's play After the Fall, in which the narrator-protagonist Quentin constantly questions his motives and morality. None of his actions are, in themselves, heinous or even dishonourable, and none of them, even accidentally, had particularly grave consequences either way. Yet he is constantly tormented by moral issues - for example, his second wife attempts suicide and, although he calls an ambulance, etc and cannot be faulted as far as actions are concerned, he actually wanted her to die. Likewise, a friend of his commits suicide and at some level he is relieved because that spares him a series of problems - he had helped his friend, was entirely prepared and able to be of real assistance to him at a cost to himself, etc, but at some level was relieved he didn't have to. He realised that when his friend told him 'You're the only friend I have' he really meant 'Please be my friend' as he saw through his actions, which in themselves were perfectly honourable. Another relevant character in this play is a German woman who, as a girl, acted as a courier for the officers plotting to assassinate Hitler, and did so out of principle (and not to save her own skin because the war was lost), yet is full of self-doubt because she had been loyal before (though she had not participated in any atrocities) and feels survivor's guilt (all her plotter acquaintances were executed; she survived because none of them betrayed her). They are both perennially uncertain of their own good will.
In a similar vein, there's J. P. Sartre's Le Mur - set during the Spanish Civil War, the protagonist is a Republican soldier captured by the Fascists and, after being summarily sentenced to death, he is given a chance to save his skin if he reveals the hiding place of a certain associate. He gives lies to his captors about it, not caring at this stage whether he lives or dies (and amused by imagining them combing in vain through the hiding place he'd told them), but by a twist of fate his associate had left his prior hiding place and had hidden where the prisoner had made up he was hiding. Thus, although he unambiguously didn't deliberately betray his friend, as far as outside actions are concerned, he revealed his friend's hiding place (effectively handing him a death sentence) and saved his own skin.
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Re: At What Point Did You Lose Sympathy for Theres and Teres

Post by danielma » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:05 am

Though this be madness, yet there is method in it. I agree, their crimes are largely about severing all ties with humanity (and therefore all obligations) and about empowerment (murder seems to relieve them temporarily of a kind of deep-seated fear).
Oh I know its madness...like I said, I don't sympathise with their actions and I do agree that the paths they go down are that of irredeemable and repulsive...but I strangely enough can empathise with that core idea of empowering one's self. It's partly the magic of JAL's writing, by all accounts I SHOULD dislike these characters but yet I felt strangely compelled by them and never found myself completely repulsed by them

So skip to the end.

Sympathy is questionable...but I did get a strange sense of Empathy
though I found her sympathetic at first (all sympathy evaporated when she murdered the shopkeeper).
This too was where my sympathy started to go awry
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