Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

For discussion of John Ajvide Lindqvist's novel Lilla Stjärna
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lombano
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by lombano » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:36 pm

drakkar wrote:
lombano wrote:There are other differences, most notably that the Wolves kill 'Because!' and Eli kills for sheer survival. Plus, Eli's behaviour towards the woman with cancer shows some measure of kindness towards her victims that the Wolves lack entirely.
Yes, "because". I feel that "because" is an abyss I never manage to fully grasp, and that is part of the magic of LS. Eli knows perfectly well how to stop killing people, he just cannot make himself do it. No wonder, suicide among children is rare. OK, Eli is a "kind" mass murderer, but that doesn't do all the difference in the world to me. when I could root for a mass murder like Eli, I can also root for the wolf pack in LS.
lombano wrote:the difference between Oskar and Teresa is abysmal. Oskar shows spontaneous kindness several times, such as when he strokes Eli's cheek, when he offers Jonny his sock, very much in contrast to Teresa's casual viciousness. Oskar, at least up to the end of LTROI, is a good kid; Teresa is not. Oskar wants to be left alone by the bullies; Teresa wants to outbully the bullies.
In the end, Teresa fights back (hard), but it's a long process trhoughout the book before that happens. Which actually strengthen my perception of Teresa's soul. A deeply troubled soul. In LTROI, one of the possible endings (often considered the "happiest") involve Oskar being turned by Eli in order to be with him, thus choosing to become a mass murderer. Again, a "kind" mass murderer, but still a mass murderer.
But motivation, etc, matters here. I see no inconsistency between fully approving of Oskar whacking Jonny and how I see the Wolves. Ulike the Wolves, Eli cannot simply stop, and Teresa does a lot more than 'fighting back.'
I don't really like the idea of Oskar being turned.
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by danielma » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:18 pm

But motivation, etc, matters here. I see no inconsistency between fully approving of Oskar whacking Jonny and how I see the Wolves. Ulike the Wolves, Eli cannot simply stop, and Teresa does a lot more than 'fighting back.'
I Kind of Agree with this...I mean the truth is that Eli can theoretically stop and choose death if she did wanted too. Yet she chooses to live even if that means doing the horrible deed of murder. I have this arguement with people about Abby and it also applies to Eli...Death is an option for that character. Eli could simply choose to stop if she wished and choose death like the rest of us (much like any Vampire could)...But because of Eli's young age, I think that becomes her motivation to live. And because it is a young child, I think that's why we root for that character.

We root for that character and her actions because it is necessary to her way of life...but death isn't out of grasp for her either. She could theoretically stop what it is she is doing at any time. It just means to make the ultimate sacrifice being herself. Thus the dilemma.

The Wolves, on the other hand, could stop at any time they want and sacrifice nothing in the progress. The only thing they would be sacrificing is that gain of empowerment they recieve from their actions. For them to stop killing would mean they would go back to an ordinary exsistence of being overlooked and cast aside by society. That might seem like the end of the world to a troubled young teenage girl looking to be noticed, but it's hardly the dilemma life threatening situation that Eli is presented with. At least in societies mind and the eye of the general public. For Teresa herself, it can be argued that it is sort of a matter of life and death because of the irrational urgency that comes with being a teenager.

I mean we're talking about someone who has the dilemma of killing in order to live vs. someone who is killing to be noticed or too gain a sense of empowerment. I think we root for Eli because the stakes are raised so high, it's either kill to live or die. With Teresa and Theres, we maybe have more of a slight hint of raised eyebrows because the killing isn't necessary to their being. It's just something they happen to get a sick sense of empowerment from. But yet, I strangely still liked them.
In the end, Teresa fights back (hard), but it's a long process trhoughout the book before that happens. Which actually strengthen my perception of Teresa's soul. A deeply troubled soul. In LTROI, one of the possible endings (often considered the "happiest") involve Oskar being turned by Eli in order to be with him, thus choosing to become a mass murderer. Again, a "kind" mass murderer, but still a mass murderer.
When you say it like that, it sort of does make one realize that there is no true happy ending for Let the Right One In :lol: :D :D :lol:
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by lombano » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:33 am

I'd add, apart from the differing degrees of choice that Eli and the Wolves had, that the Wolves are all 13-19. I would hold an adult more morally responsible than a teenager, and a teenager more than a child. Especially when Teresa at least was never subjected to the sort of things Eli or even Oskar were subjected to. Actually, I would view Oskar choosing to be turned as very similar to Teresa's repeated choice to kill - except Oskar has 'better' mitigating circumstances (including the attempted murder at the pool, and his age).
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by drakkar » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:32 am

danielma wrote:
drakkar wrote: In the end, Teresa fights back (hard), but it's a long process trhoughout the book before that happens. Which actually strengthen my perception of Teresa's soul. A deeply troubled soul. In LTROI, one of the possible endings (often considered the "happiest") involve Oskar being turned by Eli in order to be with him, thus choosing to become a mass murderer. Again, a "kind" mass murderer, but still a mass murderer.
When you say it like that, it sort of does make one realize that there is no true happy ending for Let the Right One In :lol: :D :D :lol:
And, what is a true happy ending? :D Nothing lasts forever anyway, ultimately even a happy ending will fade away. So we are left with some time span of happiness, and the intensity if it, of course. If this time span is too long to worry about, then is it a true happy ending. In the end of LTROI E&O are very happy, and they have grown throughout the story, there is some change to which is part of the happiness. (Same can be said about LS). Now the question is how long will it have to last before the ending is recognized as happy? Depends on the reader, I think. The happiness in LTROI is intense, but could be very short lived. Or it could last VERY long however mixed with hardship and eternal feelings of guilt in the two little vampires. So, a happy ending mixed wit bittersweetness? Yes, that's how I view it.
In LS the happiness is likely to last less than a minute after the novel ends. Still, T&T are happy when we leave them, and much of the tension in the novel is resolved, just like in LTROI. But is that minute or so with happiness enough to call it a happy ending? For me, barely, but also almost. The entire novel balances on a razor edge, also the ending.
lombano wrote: I would hold an adult more morally responsible than a teenager, and a teenager more than a child.
Yea, and that is part of why I think the novel balances on a razor edge.
lombano wrote: Especially when Teresa at least was never subjected to the sort of things Eli or even Oskar were subjected to.
That is your personal view, Teresa might percieve it differently.
lombano wrote: Actually, I would view Oskar choosing to be turned as very similar to Teresa's repeated choice to kill - except Oskar has 'better' mitigating circumstances (including the attempted murder at the pool, and his age).
Oskar don't want to kill, he wants to be with Eli. And alas, then the killing is part of it. Teresa at last find true meaningfulness in being with Theres. And alas, the the killing is part of it.
And, in LTROI we don't see Oskar kill, even if we can find it likely he will, while in LS we witness Teresa do.
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by lombano » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:29 pm

drakkar wrote:
lombano wrote: Especially when Teresa at least was never subjected to the sort of things Eli or even Oskar were subjected to.
That is your personal view, Teresa might percieve it differently.
Yes, but we are not Teresa - objectively, though she was viciously bullied, it didn't reach Oskar levels, nor did anyone attempt to drown her. Theres is another matter, and more comparable with Eli.
lombano wrote: Actually, I would view Oskar choosing to be turned as very similar to Teresa's repeated choice to kill - except Oskar has 'better' mitigating circumstances (including the attempted murder at the pool, and his age).
Oskar don't want to kill, he wants to be with Eli. And alas, then the killing is part of it. Teresa at last find true meaningfulness in being with Theres. And alas, the the killing is part of it.
And, in LTROI we don't see Oskar kill, even if we can find it likely he will, while in LS we witness Teresa do.
Teresa does want to kill, though.
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by drakkar » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:11 pm

I am not quite comfortable with the idea that if someone tries to kill Oskar, then it suddenly becomes more OK that he might become a killer. Those trying to drown him got killed, so he will become a killer of innocent people.
lombano wrote:Teresa does want to kill, though.
My impression is that this is a oversimplification of the process Teresa undergoes. Teresa doesn't start killing and then finding Theres, she goes with Theres and then becomes a killer. I think this "killing issue" is a red herring, it just comes along with Oskar and Teresa's choice of being with Eli and Theres. There is a difference in degree between LTROI and LS.
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by lombano » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:57 pm

drakkar wrote: I am not quite comfortable with the idea that if someone tries to kill Oskar, then it suddenly becomes more OK that he might become a killer. Those trying to drown him got killed, so he will become a killer of innocent people.
Not more OK morally, but more explainable - something more akin to the insanity defense than to the necessity defense. In fact I'd go a little further and say that as per the film, Jimmy had it coming but the killings of Conny and Martin would be murder save for temporary insanity on Eli's part (and I'd say much the same of a parent with a shotgun, for instance). I'm not making a binary distinction but one of degree - Oskar's deciding to be turned would have less of murder and more of a kind of insanity on account of trauma than if he'd had less traumatic experiences, , but it is merely a distinction of degree of guilt (extenuating circumstances) rather than absolving him.
drakkar wrote:
lombano wrote:Teresa does want to kill, though.
My impression is that this is a oversimplification of the process Teresa undergoes. Teresa doesn't start killing and then finding Theres, she goes with Theres and then becomes a killer. I think this "killing issue" is a red herring, it just comes along with Oskar and Teresa's choice of being with Eli and Theres. There is a difference in degree between LTROI and LS.
Yes, it would be more accurate to say she's willing to kill and then discovers she likes to kill. Nevertheless, this is unlike pre-pool Oskar, who it is clear (from his horror at seriously considering feeding the bullies to Eli, for example) is no killer even if he dreams of becoming one. If he chooses to be turned, that's a different matter, though this is an outcome that is plausible, it does imply a radical change in Oskar, presumably arising from the trauma not just from the attempted drowning itself but from his belief of having been forsaken by all save Eli. Of course, even then, Theres did not literally save Teresa's life, and Teresa was not forsaken by all.
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by drakkar » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:53 pm

No, it is not an easy one, this, it's an important reason why I am so impressed by John's writing, he deals with very difficult issues in a most impressive way. In LTROI the explanation for Eli choice of keeping going on is his age. Grown up vampires commits suicide, and only keep going on if they are destroyed or insane, not longer part of humanity. Sauvin touches Oskar's distance from humanity in Oskar at 40, more or less exactly the same mechanism as Knausgård explains the Utøya massacre by Anders Behring Breivik. In LS, Theres does not seem to be of this world at all, while Teresa (IIRC) partly feels, partly is rejected from the world. When the distance to the world/humanity becomes/feels large enough Teresa's resistance towards killing also is reduced.

I think the main difference between LTROI and LS is that LS follows the characters longer. The "happy end " of LTROI involves killing of innocent people that are included in LS (we don't want Eli to die - at least 1500 persons are dead because of him since 1981.) I don't have any quotes, but my impression is that Teresa likes being part of the wolf pack, including its activities. Killing makes her feel belonging (John at his best). You almost make it sound like Teresa like killing all by herself, (as if Oskar left with Eli so he could start killing), and this is not how I read LS.
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by lombano » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:44 pm

drakkar wrote: I don't have any quotes, but my impression is that Teresa likes being part of the wolf pack, including its activities. Killing makes her feel belonging (John at his best). You almost make it sound like Teresa like killing all by herself, (as if Oskar left with Eli so he could start killing), and this is not how I read LS.
Part of it is belonging in the pack, etc, but nevertheless she does get something out of killing in and of itself - the whole shopkeeper scene, the role she takes in planning the Skansen massacre, everything. It's a feeling of empowerment and not being afraid rather than sadism, yes, but that merely changes what she likes about it. Neither Oskar nor Eli actually want to hurt anyone, though by the time they're on the train to Karlstad they might not care at all.
I do think Eli and Theres are more comparable - both are obviously the 'other', etc, but also I'd be more prepared to forgive either than Teresa - in a way, Theres might be seen as worse than Eli because she isn't doing it for survival and because she's older but on the other hand her view of humanity is even more profoundly warped.
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Re: Parallels Between Little Star and LTROI - Spoilers

Post by drakkar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:09 am

In LTROI, Oskar leaves the world in the pool, when Avilá turns his back on him just before the pool showdown. I see a parallell to that in LS when Teresa is sent to the mental hospital, having lost the last of her real contact with her parents. When getting out of the hospital, she goes to the only person she can talk to, When at last coming out from her shell, yelling out her frustration to Theres, Theres "show her how to do", and then plainly kills the shopkeeper in front of Teresa. From then on, the snowball really starts rolling.
LTROI ends in the pool, we never get to know what becomes of Oskar LTODD hints about a sinister predatory air about Oskar 28 years later, however I don't see him as kinder or less dangerous than Teresa, it's just that the book stops before get to know his development.
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