Myth, religion, etc

For discussion of John Ajvide Lindqvist's novel Lilla Stjärna
Post Reply
User avatar
lombano
Posts: 2993
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:56 pm
Location: Xalapa, Mexico
Contact:

Myth, religion, etc

Post by lombano » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:25 pm

minor spoilers not hidden: I was struck by how, though the central issue has no obvious (to me at least) analogue in mythology, the book draws on various myths. There is of course the the theme of the baby left in the forest to die but found by someone (Oedipus and various other classical myths), there's Urd, there's Teresa's dream of being raised by wolves (Romulus and Remus), etc. But with Theres being buried alive as a baby, and life in the cellar perhaps counting also as a kind of live burial -and, later, having each of the wolves buried alive and then rescued- I saw a kind of mirror image of the Christian view of death and resurrection: there's a saviour, who rose from the grave, who can raise people from the dead (Lazarus) and will establish his kingdom on earth after the resurrection of the faithful. Compare with the wolves' situation after they are buried alive and 'resurrected.' Thus Theres is sort of a reverse Jesus - an anti-Christ of sorts, not in the Biblical sense, but still. An apt description, to steal a line from J. L. Borges, is that Theres is an 'espantoso redentor' (a horrific redeemer).
Am I talking nonsense or does this make sense to others?
Last edited by lombano on Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bli mig lite.

DMt.

Re: Myth, religion, etc

Post by DMt. » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:35 pm

I have often longed to hear you talk a little nonsense, Lombo, but no, I don't think you are.

Must read this book...

User avatar
lombano
Posts: 2993
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:56 pm
Location: Xalapa, Mexico
Contact:

Re: Myth, religion, etc

Post by lombano » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:00 pm

Well, you must read the book to tell if I'm talking nonsense...
Bli mig lite.

User avatar
Nightrider
Moderator
Posts: 3546
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:02 am
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Contact:

Re: Myth, religion, etc

Post by Nightrider » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:45 pm

Am I talking nonsense or does this make sense to others?
You talking nonsense, Señor!!!! Naw...Just kidding. :)
I picked up on all that stuff as well. It works for the novel, especially since Theres' origins are so completely surrounded in mystery.

It's not the first time spiritual overtones found their way into Lindquist's writing. Organized religion and mythology is so omnipresent in our every day lives that it's no wonder it becomes one of the central themes in "Little Star". Intended or not (I'm sure it's intended) all these things are there.
http://www.aspca.org/

Visit our Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/WeTheInfected

Nobody understands...and of course...how could they?

User avatar
gattoparde59
Posts: 3242
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:32 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Myth, religion, etc

Post by gattoparde59 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:22 pm

I didn't see much Christian mythology when I read this, but maybe that is just me. I do see much that suggests primitive tribal beliefs and especially rituals. The idea of dieing and being reborn shows up in various intiation rituals as well as in Christian thinking. The ritual burial is part of a whole series of rites conducted at the "pack weekend" at the lake, concluding with a human sacrifice. It all looks pretty pagan to me.

If Theres has lived at an earlier time in history she would undoubtedly be seen as a person connected to the supernatural because of her strange behavior and remarkable talents. She might be seen as a child possessed by demons (which would not automatically get her classified as "evil"), or a shaman, or a witch, or a prophet. To me, she wins people over by the strength of her own convictions. She is convincing because she really believes in her own vision of the world.

Other things that remind me of the primitive and the pagan. The red smoke: that sounds like some primitive warrior belief that you could some how capture the essence or spirit of your slain enemies and claim it for your own. Cannibal practice is sometimes associated with this idea. This becomes a kind of narcotic for Theres' initiates. It is "good," says Theres. (She went rummaging around in the brain cases of Lennart and Laila, looking for love, and apparently this is what she found? Correct me if you saw that part differently.)

Teresa describes herself as a "Troll." She is a troll in terms of internet jargon, but she is also sees herself as a troll in the folkloric sense of the word. She is a "changeling." She is homly and misshappen and does not quite fit into her own family, or even into human society in general. She sees herself as something less than human.

By the way, I don't see much extraordinary about Theres being buried in the forest. We are told there is a black BMW. Lennart does not see a troop fairies or trolls scurring away. It does have its folklore antecedents, like Hansel and Gretal, but to me it is not that unusual. Babies are found all the time in dumpsters, garbage bags, car trunks- sometimes alive, sometimes dead. It happens often enough that there is a special law in the State of Pennsylvania, the "Baby Drop-Off" law. You may abandon a baby in a hospital or police station and no questions will be asked.

I'll break open the story and tell you what is there. Then, like the others that have fallen out onto the sand, I will finish with it, and the wind will take it away.

Nisa

User avatar
lombano
Posts: 2993
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:56 pm
Location: Xalapa, Mexico
Contact:

Re: Myth, religion, etc

Post by lombano » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:58 pm

gattoparde59 wrote:I didn't see much Christian mythology when I read this, but maybe that is just me. I do see much that suggests primitive tribal beliefs and especially rituals. The idea of dieing and being reborn shows up in various intiation rituals as well as in Christian thinking. The ritual burial is part of a whole series of rites conducted at the "pack weekend" at the lake, concluding with a human sacrifice. It all looks pretty pagan to me...

Other things that remind me of the primitive and the pagan. The red smoke: that sounds like some primitive warrior belief that you could some how capture the essence or spirit of your slain enemies and claim it for your own. Cannibal practice is sometimes associated with this idea. This becomes a kind of narcotic for Theres' initiates. It is "good," says Theres. (She went rummaging around in the brain cases of Lennart and Laila, looking for love, and apparently this is what she found? Correct me if you saw that part differently.)
You're right in that it does seem more pagan than Christian, at least the part concerning human sacrifice - though it might depend on the culture, in ancient Mexico human sacrifice was about sustenance for the gods, whereas in LS they all in some sense derive sustenance from it, not just Theres. I agree with how you saw her rummaging inside Laila and Lennart's heads.
gattoparde59 wrote: By the way, I don't see much extraordinary about Theres being buried in the forest. We are told there is a black BMW. Lennart does not see a troop fairies or trolls scurring away. It does have its folklore antecedents, like Hansel and Gretal, but to me it is not that unusual. Babies are found all the time in dumpsters, garbage bags, car trunks- sometimes alive, sometimes dead. It happens often enough that there is a special law in the State of Pennsylvania, the "Baby Drop-Off" law. You may abandon a baby in a hospital or police station and no questions will be asked.
Nothing supernatural or even so exceptionally rare, but thera are many stories about foundlings growing up to have an extraordinary fate (Oedipus, Moses, Romulus, etc) and this being in some way connected to their foundling status - including stories in which the child is abandoned as a result of a parent or parental figure fearing it as a threat (Snow White, Oedipus) and in these stories the threat is always real. Thus Theres stands out as someone whose origins echo that of many characters singled out for an extraordinary, possibly violent, fate. No doubt some of those myths (like tales of changelings) served as a kind of justification for parents abandoning their children, and thus in a way it ties up with Teresa's view of herself as a troll - a changeling and thus suipposed to be rejected by humanity, tying in with Theres' being left to die in the forest; both girls view themselves as unwanted, with obvious justification in Theres' case (she wasn't just abandonded, but clearly abandoned to die), and not fitting in with those who raise them, which isn't wholly the case with Teresa, after all she and her father have much in common. Interestingly, the foundling in mythology need not be evil, and can even be heroic (Moses), but the changeling as far as I know is always regarded as evil, at least up to Pan's Labyrinth. There is perhaps a certain moral differentiation here, that Theres is the real thing, while Teresa willfully embraces the identity of a troll.
Bli mig lite.

User avatar
gattoparde59
Posts: 3242
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:32 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Myth, religion, etc

Post by gattoparde59 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:44 pm

Meeting the "other" in the 1991 film Black Robe. From the novel by Brian Moore, which I also recommend. It is based on the real life exploits (and sometimes martyrdom :shock: ) of missionaries in French Canada in the 17th century. Mestigoit claimed his mother mated with a demon (although he put it a little more bluntly than I have ;) ).

I'll break open the story and tell you what is there. Then, like the others that have fallen out onto the sand, I will finish with it, and the wind will take it away.

Nisa

User avatar
sauvin
Moderator
Posts: 3410
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:52 am
Location: A cornfield in heartland USA

Re: Myth, religion, etc

Post by sauvin » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:15 pm

The girls discovered not long prior to the lakehouse weekend sleepover party to have one thing in common: a history of laying down and fantasising about or pretending to be dead.

I don't remember that any of them apart from Teresa had any particular fascination with wolves but they took their bits of wolf hide readily enough, and seemed to revere them, and take comfort from them.

Wolves are widely admired for their unity, fraternity, loyalty (if I'm not mistaken), strength, intelligence and prowess as hunters. They are also widely associated with destruction; death. Few sounds can be more bone-chilling than those of wolves howling at night.

The wolves and the morbid fantasy seem to go hand in hand with the inhumation all the girls undergo; Teresa's lettres to various media agencies prior to the sing-along include a frank admission that the girls may suffer death themselves as a consequence of their predation.

I wish I had more time right now to go into it - the lakehouse weekend is a unique image in my horror-addict experience, and uniquely powerful!
Fais tomber les barrières entre nous qui sommes tous des frères

User avatar
gattoparde59
Posts: 3242
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:32 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Myth, religion, etc

Post by gattoparde59 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:44 am

lombano wrote:An apt description, to steal a line from J. L. Borges, is that Theres is an 'espantoso redentor' (a horrific redeemer).
That makes sense.

I'll break open the story and tell you what is there. Then, like the others that have fallen out onto the sand, I will finish with it, and the wind will take it away.

Nisa

User avatar
lombano
Posts: 2993
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:56 pm
Location: Xalapa, Mexico
Contact:

Re: Myth, religion, etc

Post by lombano » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:04 am

sauvin wrote: Wolves are widely admired for their unity, fraternity, loyalty (if I'm not mistaken), strength, intelligence and prowess as hunters. They are also widely associated with destruction; death. Few sounds can be more bone-chilling than those of wolves howling at night.

The wolves and the morbid fantasy seem to go hand in hand with the inhumation all the girls undergo; Teresa's lettres to various media agencies prior to the sing-along include a frank admission that the girls may suffer death themselves as a consequence of their predation...
I think in mythology wolves were considered above all fearsome - this makes sense as in medieval Europe villages were sometimes attacked by packs of rabid wolves. The less unlucky villagers were killed outright; the truly unlucky ones got rabies. This is reflected even in phrases like man being a wolf to his fellow man, which Jerry quotes, "crying wolf," etc. In Spanish there's a phrase for a place that is menacingly dark (like a dark alley in a bad neighbourhood): como la boca del lobo, "like the wolf's mouth."
Interestingly, Aldous Huxley noted in Brave New World Revisited that humans, while not natural loners like sharks, aren't truly social creatures like ants and bees; we're in-between, like wolves.


An I think relevant text is the story of Lazarus from the Gospel according to John:

"Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die..."

Jesus then has Lazarus' tomb opened, and commands him to come forth. The whole theme of burial and resurrection in The Dead Girls to me strongly echoes this.
Bli mig lite.

Post Reply

Return to “Little Star”