Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

For discussion of John Ajvide Lindqvist's novel Lilla Stjärna
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lombano
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by lombano » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:01 pm

The murder of the guy in the shop put Teresa morally beyond the pale, but nevertheless killing Johannes is an even greater moral transgression.
gattoparde59 wrote: It is a common place in literature to have a character faced with a conflict between personal feelings and their own sense of morality. In Prosper Merimee's short story Mateo Falcone, the Corsican bandit Falcone puts his own feelings aside and shoots his own son in punishment for violating the code of honor. That is what I think Teresa does when she kills Johannes. She is setting her own feelings aside, or perhaps extinguishing them, forever. :shock:
But Teresa isn't doing it at Theres' bidding and the other Wolves aren't involved - it's not something she's doing for the pack. It's something she's doing entirely of her own volition, rather than following a code against her own inclinations. There and the other Wolves had no responsibility for the killing of Johannes - they only prey on enemies and strangers, not wholly unlike real wolves.

To expand on my comparison with Javert, in Javert's case it's also about emotion to some extent - his entire worldview is based on equating morality and legality, and on following his duty, which naturally he perceives as upholding the law without fear or favour or pity. His entire life has been based on these premises, which ironically by saving him Jean Valjean shatters completely, thus destroying him emotionally. Faced with the shattering of his worldview, and with the moral conflict he has in either betraying the law or putting himself morally beyond the pale, he severs all ties to his superiors by killing himself. The way Javert sees it, his suicide is a way of tendering his resignation to both God and the police. Teresa rejects both morality and motional ties with her species by murdering Johannes, although she was already morally beyond the pale.
gattoparde59 wrote: Hawks are not the animal we want here, because hawks are not the social animals that Teresa is looking for. Teresa wants to belong to something, Teresa wants a "family." Teresa longs for a family that will set her free, as she imagines wolves in the wild living free.
It's clear of course that how she imagines wolves has little to do with real wolves - real packs are usually made up of blood relatives (in nature, blood is everything), and they're never all of the same sex, plus they're about survival and not about going on the offensive against an enemy that will ultimately subdue them if they go far enough. Ironically what she's looking for does exist, but not in nature - what she's looking for is a gang of bullies. That's partly why she rejected Johannes' friendship.
gattoparde59 wrote:At the end Teresa goes to great lenghts to free the wolfs from their prison in at Skansen. Ironically, they stay within their enclosure.
Emphasizing how little what they do has to do with real wolves. The real wolves aren't interested in these disputes between humans, and have no interest in approaching them.
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drakkar
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by drakkar » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:25 pm

lombano wrote:But Teresa isn't doing it at Theres' bidding and the other Wolves aren't involved - it's not something she's doing for the pack.
Agreed. Throughout her short life, Teresa has become more and more of an outcast in the society, she doesn't feel she is part of it anymore. Teaming up with Theres and her pack, Teresa discovers the feeling of belonging, a feeling she hasn't had since she was a little kid. Killing Johannes and the grocery man is a brutal consequence of this - she is not part of their world any more.

If John had written Little Star after 22. July 2011 (the Utøya massacre in Norway), I would have wondered if the incident had inspired him in the writing of the book.
For the heart life is simple. It beats as long as it can.
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by gattoparde59 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:22 pm

lombano wrote:But Teresa isn't doing it at Theres' bidding and the other Wolves aren't involved - it's not something she's doing for the pack. It's something she's doing entirely of her own volition, rather than following a code against her own inclinations. There and the other Wolves had no responsibility for the killing of Johannes - they only prey on enemies and strangers, not wholly unlike real wolves.
I still feel we are talking about apples and oranges here. Personally it makes little difference how immoral Teresa has become when she kills Johannes. She started to lose my sympathy when she began torturing house flies. Nobody told her to torture the flies either, that was her idea. The question for me is always why? Why did Teresa destroy the houseflies? Why does Teresa destroy Johannes? I have offered an explanation. I don't want to forgive or excuse, but I do want to understand.
lombano wrote:It's clear of course that how she imagines wolves has little to do with real wolves - real packs are usually made up of blood relatives (in nature, blood is everything), and they're never all of the same sex, plus they're about survival and not about going on the offensive against an enemy that will ultimately subdue them if they go far enough. Ironically what she's looking for does exist, but not in nature - what she's looking for is a gang of bullies. That's partly why she rejected Johannes' friendship.
Obviously Teresa's idea of the wolves is anthropomorphic. I do agree with Teresa looking at this the other way round. Human beings are animals. Humans live together in packs, usally made up of blood relatives (in human society blood is everything) and they are usually not all the same sex. Usually human packs are about survival. Animals can also be vicious bullies, especially our near cousins the higher primates. I agree that wolves are peaceful, orderly creatures, peaceful and orderly that is until the "other" wolf shows up. . .

I'll break open the story and tell you what is there. Then, like the others that have fallen out onto the sand, I will finish with it, and the wind will take it away.

Nisa

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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by lombano » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:06 am

gattoparde59 wrote: I still feel we are talking about apples and oranges here. Personally it makes little difference how immoral Teresa has become when she kills Johannes. She started to lose my sympathy when she began torturing house flies.
For me the turning point was when she kills the man in the shop. But even if one no longer has sympathy for her, a line is crossed when she kills him.
gattoparde59 wrote: Obviously Teresa's idea of the wolves is anthropomorphic. I do agree with Teresa looking at this the other way round. Human beings are animals. Humans live together in packs, usally made up of blood relatives (in human society blood is everything) and they are usually not all the same sex. Usually human packs are about survival. Animals can also be vicious bullies, especially our near cousins the higher primates. I agree that wolves are peaceful, orderly creatures, peaceful and orderly that is until the "other" wolf shows up. . .
Yes, animals can also be vicious bullies, yet the behaviour of packs and so forth usually serves some evolutionary purpose - normally they're mainly about blood and food, not primarily about bullying or wholly gratuitous violence. Among humans, tribal societies show pretty close analogues - clans, extended families. Even among modern Western societies the family is probably the closest analogue. A gang of bullies is a very particular case in which it's not mainly about blood or survival or even about material advantages (unlike the mafia), it's purpose is bullying. Thus Teresa isn't like a wolf, what she's really looking for is being Conny.
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by sauvin » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:46 pm

lombano wrote:Yes, animals can also be vicious bullies, yet the behaviour of packs and so forth usually serves some evolutionary purpose - normally they're mainly about blood and food, not primarily about bullying or wholly gratuitous violence. Among humans, tribal societies show pretty close analogues - clans, extended families. Even among modern Western societies the family is probably the closest analogue. A gang of bullies is a very particular case in which it's not mainly about blood or survival or even about material advantages (unlike the mafia), it's purpose is bullying. Thus Teresa isn't like a wolf, what she's really looking for is being Conny.
And what was Conny looking for?
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by lombano » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:24 pm

I have no idea. We never got into his head.
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