Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

For discussion of John Ajvide Lindqvist's novel Lilla Stjärna
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by lombano » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:53 am

drakkar wrote:
lombano wrote: For me it was a combination of things, rather than any particular single characteristic, that made her 'the Other.'
That is my POV as well, for example the red smoke also indicating the other.
But it is just barely so, the end with Theres and Teresa walking towards the wolves is a very open ending indeed.
Yes, but the 'Other' need not be supernatural. It kind of makes her more terrifying if it's not. The ending is very open in a strict plotwise sense, but in a way what happens next is a moot point - whether the four-legged wolves kill them, ignore them or welcome them, it's really just a matter of how different varieties of wolves interact and in a sense doesn't really have anything to do with humans. I'm reminded of a line from The Company of Wolves: 'The wolves of the forest are more decent than you!'
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by drakkar » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:03 am

lombano wrote:Yes, but the 'Other' need not be supernatural.
Hm, that is actually a very good point. Even if this has certain implications for the ending..
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by danielma » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:33 am

Yes, but the 'Other' need not be supernatural. It kind of makes her more terrifying if it's not. The ending is very open in a strict plotwise sense, but in a way what happens next is a moot point - whether the four-legged wolves kill them, ignore them or welcome them, it's really just a matter of how different varieties of wolves interact and in a sense doesn't really have anything to do with humans. I'm reminded of a line from The Company of Wolves: 'The wolves of the forest are more decent than you!'
That's a great point...I actually do really like that point and have nothing to add to it

*EDIT read my next post...I deleted everything I wrote in this one because I wasn't happy with it
Last edited by danielma on Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by danielma » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:52 am

Sorry for the double post...to expand on what I meant in the above post.

Does the "Other" really have to refer to her state of being? As in "Otherworldly" or "Grounded in Reality".

For instance, throughout the novel we see how contact with the "Other" impacts these peoples lives.

Laila and Lennart (for a brief time) find a sense of peace and happiness (or at least SOME peace and happiness) through their contact with this girl. To them she is the result of the "Other"...she is not a blood related child...yet their contact with the "Other" does bring them a moment of peace...before they of course get their brains smashed.

Jerry...as I've said before, when the novel first began, I thought he was going down the path of becoming the "Max Hensen" like character. Just a real vile creep...and yet his life erradictally changes through the contact he has with the "Other"

Teresa of course finds empowerment and a new sense of belonging that she never had before through her contact with the "Other"

I don't know if the "Other" necessarily has to be exclusively related to the idea of "Otherworld"...Theres in many ways is the "Other" in these peoples lives and her exsistence results in a great impact for these people. Their contact with the "Other" changes their lives dramatically

As for Theres being a result of Autism or the Supernatural World...I don't know, I think the book makes arguements for both answers but never cops out in giving away all the answers...
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by lombano » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:13 am

There are several possible ways a character can be 'the Other.' One if of course being technically non-human (supernatural, for instance). But they key one in LS is I think the inhuman - not in a technical physiological sense, but in a sense of wilfully rejecting humanity. Not in a sense of merely embracing the animalistic, either, but of actively, deliberately rejecting the human. Wolves may symbolise the inhuman, though in practice four-legged wolves only attack humans if threatened, desperately hungry, or rabid (again, 'Even the wolves of the forest...'). In this sense, whatever the original cause (supernatural, neurological, other medical, childhood trauma), the end result is the same. Perhaps it is that they can sense the inhuman in Theres why the other Wolves are so drawn to her - in that sense, 'nothing compares to you' indeed. Her inhumanly perfect voice is then analogous to animals identifying a call from their own kind.
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by Wolfchild » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:28 am

lombano wrote:There are several possible ways a character can be 'the Other.' One if of course being technically non-human (supernatural, for instance). But they key one in LS is I think the inhuman - not in a technical physiological sense, but in a sense of wilfully rejecting humanity. Not in a sense of merely embracing the animalistic, either, but of actively, deliberately rejecting the human. Wolves may symbolise the inhuman, though in practice four-legged wolves only attack humans if threatened, desperately hungry, or rabid (again, 'Even the wolves of the forest...'). In this sense, whatever the original cause (supernatural, neurological, other medical, childhood trauma), the end result is the same. Perhaps it is that they can sense the inhuman in Theres why the other Wolves are so drawn to her - in that sense, 'nothing compares to you' indeed. Her inhumanly perfect voice is then analogous to animals identifying a call from their own kind.
Now this is an interesting theme. The symbol of man's inner beast becomes to Teresa the symbol of her humanity. To Teresa, wolves embody many of the traits that humanity is supposed to encompass, yet does not. At least, she believes that her experience with humanity has not. Finally, she goes on to destroy the one person who has acted towards her with some best traits of humanity. In her efforts to reject humanity as being inhuman, she destroys any claim that she would have to those same traits that she seeks in wolves.
...the story derives a lot of its appeal from its sense of despair and a darkness in which the love of Eli and Oskar seems to shine with a strange and disturbing light.
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by lombano » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:33 am

But Teresa is initially drawn to the idea of the lone wolf (though she admits to herself wolves can only survive for long in packs) and I always got the impression that it was a wolf's untamed nature what drew her, the wolf as a symbol of what is wild and powerful and free, a symbol of what she aspires to be, but not a symbol of her humanity. In that sense I see no contradiction between her actions and her embracing the wolf as a symbol. Rather than as an inner beast, I see the wolf in this context as the enemy of humanity, a view with a solid basis in medieval realities, when packs of rabid wolves would descend on the towns - if they got you, they'd kill you outright if you were lucky; if not, you'd die of rabies. If vampirism in LTROI is in some sense a symbol of all that is wrong with human nature, the wolf here to me seems to represent a condition alien to humanity and whose sole connection to humanity is its unrelenting hostility. That the Wolves are physiological humans merely reinforces this hostility - somewhat like Satan being a former angel.
I think Teresa views almost all positive traits as alien to humanity (and perhaps hermurdering Johannes at some level is like destroying evidence to the contrary) and would have a very Maldororean view of human nature - (think calling on God to show him a man who is good, and asking for strength as one might die of astonishment at the sight of such a monster).
In that sense, the live burials are a way of killing what is human in them, and then murdering Johannes is a way of destroying any evidence that it might not have been a justified choice - note that she considers murdering her family, who for all their faults ahd been loving and thus constituted contrary evidence.
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by gattoparde59 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:39 am

Wolfchild wrote:Now this is an interesting theme. The symbol of man's inner beast becomes to Teresa the symbol of her humanity. To Teresa, wolves embody many of the traits that humanity is supposed to encompass, yet does not. At least, she believes that her experience with humanity has not. Finally, she goes on to destroy the one person who has acted towards her with some best traits of humanity. In her efforts to reject humanity as being inhuman, she destroys any claim that she would have to those same traits that she seeks in wolves.
My thinking is closer to wolfchild on this, although it becomes a bit confusing. (We become less human so we can be more human :think: ) What Teresa sees in the wolf living close to nature is an alternate way to live where emotions are translated immediately into actions. "Inside every person there is another person." There are no fears. There are no inhibitions to behavior. No moping about and having other people control your life. Some guy messes with you, you give him a boot in the privates. End of discussion. What the wolf also seems to represent to Teresa is an alternate society. Wolfs are social animals, which is something that makes them human like, rather than the embodiment of evil. Like people they have there hierarchy, but their hierarchy is more attractive. A pure and simple society, an adolescent's utopia without all the messy baggage of modern society (power tools excepted :lol: ). Wolfs are also ruthless predators. To be her ideal of the perfect predator, Teresa needs to turn her back on her own human feelings and become completely ruthless. That is why she kills Johannes I think, to prove to herself that she has finally uncoupled herself from her own humanity. To finally go over the edge and become the thing, the wolf she wants to be, to be more like Theres in other words.
Last edited by gattoparde59 on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by lombano » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:08 am

gattoparde59 wrote:
Wolfchild wrote:Now this is an interesting theme. The symbol of man's inner beast becomes to Teresa the symbol of her humanity. To Teresa, wolves embody many of the traits that humanity is supposed to encompass, yet does not. At least, she believes that her experience with humanity has not. Finally, she goes on to destroy the one person who has acted towards her with some best traits of humanity. In her efforts to reject humanity as being inhuman, she destroys any claim that she would have to those same traits that she seeks in wolves.
My thinking is closer to wolfchild on this, although it becomes a bit confusing. (We become less human so we can be more human :think: ) What Teresa in the wolf living close to nature is an alternate way to live where emotions are translated immediately into actions. "Inside every person there is another person." There are no fears. There are no inhibitions to behavior. No moping about and having other people control your life. Some guy messes with you, you give him a boot in the privates. End of discussion. What the wolf also seems to represent to Teresa is an alternate society. Wolfs are social animals, which is something that makes them human like, rather than the embodiment of evil. Like people they have there hierarchy, but their hierarchy is more attractive. A pure and simple society, a adolescent's utopia without all the messy baggage of modern society (power tools excepted :lol: ). Wolfs are also ruthless predators. To be her ideal of the perfect predator, Teresa needs to turn her back on her own human feelings and become completely ruthless. That is why she kills Johannes I think, to prove to herself that she has finally uncoupled herself from her own humanity. To finally go over the edge and become the thing wolf she wants to be, to be more like Theres in other words.
I think the most crucial thing for Teresa in breaking her ties with humanity - not just in terms of people messing with her or being controlled by others, but above all in reneging on all moral obligations. By killing Johannes she makes herself a moral outlaw. I've just thought of a parallelism: in Les Miserables (the book, I've not watched the musical) the policeman Javert is eventually forced to confront Jean Valjean isn't just a criminal and has to face either betraying the man who saves his life at considerable risk to himself, or becoming himself a criminal in the eyes of the law. In either case, he, a man obsessed by duty, order and hierarchy is forced to rebel against a superior - either his superiors in the police, or God and morality. He tenders his resignation by committing suicide. Likewise, Teresa tenders her resignation by murdering Johannes. If it were merely about inhibitions or being controlled by others, killing Max Hansen would've done the trick, or they would've killed Jenny or an authority figure. Teresa longs to be a wolf because wolves are symbolically the enemies of humanity. If it were about freedom, a hawk would've been a better symbol surely. Theres is, ironically, far more like a real wolf than what Teresa wants to be. Theres, in a very twisted way, does care about her kind - the Dead Girls, Jerry. She is violent only towards those on some level she sees as her enemies. Theres is tribal (like wolves), but Teresa is vicious. The real enemies of humanity are people like Teresa, not actual wolves.
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Re: Does Teresa have....<Spoilers, won't say them in title>

Post by gattoparde59 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:55 pm

lombano wrote:I think the most crucial thing for Teresa in breaking her ties with humanity - not just in terms of people messing with her or being controlled by others, but above all in reneging on all moral obligations. By killing Johannes she makes herself a moral outlaw. I've just thought of a parallelism: in Les Miserables (the book, I've not watched the musical) the policeman Javert is eventually forced to confront Jean Valjean isn't just a criminal and has to face either betraying the man who saves his life at considerable risk to himself, or becoming himself a criminal in the eyes of the law. In either case, he, a man obsessed by duty, order and hierarchy is forced to rebel against a superior - either his superiors in the police, or God and morality. He tenders his resignation by committing suicide. Likewise, Teresa tenders her resignation by murdering Johannes. If it were merely about inhibitions or being controlled by others, killing Max Hansen would've done the trick, or they would've killed Jenny or an authority figure. Teresa longs to be a wolf because wolves are symbolically the enemies of humanity. If it were about freedom, a hawk would've been a better symbol surely. Theres is, ironically, far more like a real wolf than what Teresa wants to be. Theres, in a very twisted way, does care about her kind - the Dead Girls, Jerry. She is violent only towards those on some level she sees as her enemies. Theres is tribal (like wolves), but Teresa is vicious. The real enemies of humanity are people like Teresa, not actual wolves.
I agree that killing Johannes is the final nail in the coffin as far as Teresa's own humanity is concerned, but I think in this case you are confusing emotions and morality. Teresa has already gone way over the edge in regards morality by killing people at random, or even killing people in revenge. As if to emphasize that aspect, Theres tells her "it would be good" to bash someone's head in with a hammer. Why it would be good is not entirely clear at first to Teresa, but she is eventually won over to Theres skewed view of the world.

It is a common place in literature to have a character faced with a conflict between personal feelings and their own sense of morality. In Prosper Merimee's short story Mateo Falcone, the Corsican bandit Falcone puts his own feelings aside and shoots his own son in punishment for violating the code of honor. That is what I think Teresa does when she kills Johannes. She is setting her own feelings aside, or perhaps extinguishing them, forever. :shock:

Hawks are not the animal we want here, because hawks are not the social animals that Teresa is looking for. Teresa wants to belong to something, Teresa wants a "family." Teresa longs for a family that will set her free, as she imagines wolves in the wild living free. The song she writes with Theres, "Fly," is metaphor for self-liberation. At the end Teresa goes to great lenghts to free the wolfs from their prison in at Skansen. Ironically, they stay within their enclosure.

I'll break open the story and tell you what is there. Then, like the others that have fallen out onto the sand, I will finish with it, and the wind will take it away.

Nisa

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