Let the Long Night End (Complete)

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metoo
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:18 am

sauvin wrote:Metoo, and yet, there are two broad-brush possible futures for Oskar that we know of:

(1) Oskar remains uninfected;
(2) Oskar becomes infected.

The latter possibility, as I understand it, is mentioned in LTODD, where he's said to have a kind of "predatory" look. One presumes the kids live happily ever after, more or less. The former possibility means he'll be happy in some respects and miserable in others. Maybe Oskar's still headed for even greater crises in either event. Without knowing what kinds of things the kids might have discussed and decided, Oskar on that train is "blissfully" unaware of even greater horrors yet to come?
Yes, possibility 2 is rather explicitly told in LtODD. Eli and Oskar are seen mixing blood, which Eli stated in the novel would surely infect Oskar. And, of course, it worked. How else to explain that a 12 year old Oskar Eriksson is in a photograph taken in 2008?

But I don't think it is correct to say that in scenario 2 Oskar would have been unaware of horrors yet to come. Remember that he had personally witnessed some of the consequences of Eli's plight, and had been able to figure some others out. He might not have known of all of the horrors, but I think he did have a rather clear view of their character and magnitude. After all, he had the memory of being mutilated and then turned into a vampire (he had in the novel, that is). He had been there, himself. I don't think Oskar looking forward to being turned into a vampire was blissfully ignorant. I think he was blissful despite looking forward to a future that he knew would in most aspects be very miserable.

Scenario 1, however, would be a different thing altogether. Oskar would not have known much of what hardships he would see as an unturned, growing up and eventually ageing companion to a child vampire. Your Oskar at 40 is completely plausible (and very well written, I might add).
Last edited by metoo on Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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PeteMork
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by PeteMork » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:29 pm

SpartanAltego wrote:...Those three days served as a sort of emotional pressure cooker for Oskar. Eli offered to make him a vampire just after Lacke's demise, but Oskar refused. Implied in that refusal, I think, was a rejection of any notion of running away with Eli at that time. He wants Eli to stay, but he doesn't want to leave either. The three days in solitude are what changes his mind: he nearly burns down the school, wallows in abject despair now that he is alone and all the more aware of how alone he is, and finds even his relationship with Mr. Avila has been tainted and taken from him. When Oskar sees Avila looking at him with pity, that's the last straw: the moment Oskar decides he's no longer interested in being part of that world. The pool attack and Eli's rescue just reinforced his conviction by that point.

So my opinion is that the three days of isolation are indeed critical and act as the real turning point for Oskar. He is made fully conscious of the sheer disconnect between himself and everyone else in his life, and decides that he doesn't want to stay anymore: either by dying, or by going with Eli.
This actually sums up my take on those three days also. The 16-hour delay after the slaughter could be simply the amount of time it took poor Oskar to recover from viewing all that carnage first-hand. I can't imagine a 12-year-boy, even one as dark as some think Oskar may be, would be able to recover fully from that in days; let alone hours. Also, (correct me if I'm wrong, Metoo) perhaps the train they took was the first one out of the area after they got their act together, even if it were only a few hours later...

@SpartanAltego: Your latest addition to your already well-written and nuanced chapter, chilled me to the bone. Very well done indeed! And adding a possible werewolf to the mix is a touch of genius. As difficult as that may be, I am confident that you can pull it off.
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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SpartanAltego
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:32 pm

PeteMork wrote:
SpartanAltego wrote:...Those three days served as a sort of emotional pressure cooker for Oskar. Eli offered to make him a vampire just after Lacke's demise, but Oskar refused. Implied in that refusal, I think, was a rejection of any notion of running away with Eli at that time. He wants Eli to stay, but he doesn't want to leave either. The three days in solitude are what changes his mind: he nearly burns down the school, wallows in abject despair now that he is alone and all the more aware of how alone he is, and finds even his relationship with Mr. Avila has been tainted and taken from him. When Oskar sees Avila looking at him with pity, that's the last straw: the moment Oskar decides he's no longer interested in being part of that world. The pool attack and Eli's rescue just reinforced his conviction by that point.

So my opinion is that the three days of isolation are indeed critical and act as the real turning point for Oskar. He is made fully conscious of the sheer disconnect between himself and everyone else in his life, and decides that he doesn't want to stay anymore: either by dying, or by going with Eli.
This actually sums up my take on those three days also. The 16-hour delay after the slaughter could be simply the amount of time it took poor Oskar to recover from viewing all that carnage first-hand. I can't imagine a 12-year-boy, even one as dark as some think Oskar may be, would be able to recover fully from that in days; let alone hours. Also, (correct me if I'm wrong, Metoo) perhaps the train they took was the first one out of the area after they got their act together, even if it were only a few hours later...

@SpartanAltego: Your latest addition to your already well-written and nuanced chapter, chilled me to the bone. Very well done indeed! And adding a possible werewolf to the mix is a touch of genius. As difficult as that may be, I am confident that you can pull it off.
Thank you. My approach is that LtROI's style could account for various supernatural phenomena beyond vampirism, without clashing with the veneer of realism and subdued supernatural elements. All it takes is a simple edict: A curse must be rare, and it must be painful, dehumanizing, and desirable only to the most hopeless or cruel of creatures. A curse is a painful separation from humanity and companionship, and if you don't fear the cursed you should pity them. (Edit:) An important source of inspiration I draw from is the scene in "Once Bitten" where Oskar's transformation is neither glamorous nor dignified. He quite literally is reduced to a curled up mess in a bathtub, fouling himself with urine, feces, and his own now useless intestines. "Hollowed out like a pumpkin. Pumpkin goo being shaken out."

After all, none of us were drawn to Eli because he was a vampire: that was just the framing device to justify his mystique and nuance of personality. When Levi was born in my mind, I knew right away that I needed to give him that same mystery and sadness, and (as Part II will hopefully demonstrate) an engaging personality to accompany it.
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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metoo
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:30 pm

PeteMork wrote:Also, (correct me if I'm wrong, Metoo) perhaps the train they took was the first one out of the area after they got their act together, even if it were only a few hours later...
Not really. Stockholm Central is a large junction and probably the busiest railway station in Sweden. There would have been plenty of departures at any hour.

But I agree that it would have taken most of the 16 hours for Oskar to recover from the shock of being almost killed, and from the miserable mental state he was in before that. But this only supports my idea that Oskar wasn't ready to leave with Eli immediately after having been pulled out of the water. He wasn't ready until the next day, after daybreak, or they would have left earlier.

By the way, I don't think Eli flew with Oskar from the bath house. Given Eli's most likely flying configuration (here, here, and here), I think he couldn't have carried Oskar. That aside, Oskar needed his clothes and his keys. Without the latter they would not have been able to collect Eli's cardboard boxes. Therefore I think they simply walked, despite this being quite mundane and unexciting...
Last edited by metoo on Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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metoo
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:54 pm

SpartanAltego wrote:My approach is that LtROI's style could account for various supernatural phenomena beyond vampirism, without clashing with the veneer of realism and subdued supernatural elements. All it takes is a simple edict: A curse must be rare, and it must be painful, dehumanizing, and desirable only to the most hopeless or cruel of creatures.
Although I generally dislike more magic (and magical creatures) than explicitly given in the novel being added to any fan fiction, I agree to the above. Some external observer through whose eyes we can see Oskar and Eli is virtually necessary, and this person must be able to handle the truth about them in a believable way. Another supernatural creature would do the trick.

A small point of criticism to the latest part: the water in such a deep well would hardly be frozen. It doesn't matter much, though.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:55 am

metoo wrote:
SpartanAltego wrote:My approach is that LtROI's style could account for various supernatural phenomena beyond vampirism, without clashing with the veneer of realism and subdued supernatural elements. All it takes is a simple edict: A curse must be rare, and it must be painful, dehumanizing, and desirable only to the most hopeless or cruel of creatures.
Although I generally dislike more magic (and magical creatures) than explicitly given in the novel being added to any fan fiction, I agree to the above. Some external observer through whose eyes we can see Oskar and Eli is virtually necessary, and this person must be able to handle the truth about them in a believable way. Another supernatural creature would do the trick.

A small point of criticism to the latest part: the water in such a deep well would hardly be frozen. It doesn't matter much, though.
Indeed, that's why I noted I was treading a fine line when I posted the summary. The addition of supernatural elements that are outside novel canon have to be measured out carefully, lest I go too far into conventional fantasy storytelling. But I was committed pretty much for the reasons you listed: an outside perspective makes the story more engaging, and there are opportunities for comparing and contrasting the experiences and outlooks of someone like Levi versus Eli. No two curses are alike, after all.

Thank you for pointing out the water detail; I'll be sure to remedy that in the final draft. The well scene itself will probably be about twice the length when I've revised the chapter, now that I think about it. And the idea of all of Levi's discarded human and wolf skins floating in the waters instead of sitting on the ice...oh my. It's pleasantly nauseating.
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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metoo
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:45 am

SpartanAltego wrote:Thank you for pointing out the water detail; I'll be sure to remedy that in the final draft.
Good. ;)
By the way, the water need not be very deep, a foot or two would be quite plausible. I don’t think they dug wells deeper than necessary in the old days, it would just have been wasted hard work. So, sufficiently deep to allow a bucket dropped down from above to be filled would be the minimum. Then extra depth may be required to provide a reservoir of water, if the inflow was slow or irregular. This old and unused well might also have become less deep than original due to debris that had fallen into it from above.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:03 am

metoo wrote:
SpartanAltego wrote:Thank you for pointing out the water detail; I'll be sure to remedy that in the final draft.
Good. ;)
By the way, the water need not be very deep, a foot or two would be quite plausible. I don’t think they dug wells deeper than necessary in the old days, it would just have been wasted hard work. So, sufficiently deep to allow a bucket dropped down from above to be filled would be the minimum. Then extra depth may be required to provide a reservoir of water, if the inflow was slow or irregular. This old and unused well might also have become less deep than original due to debris that had fallen into it from above.
You're a fountain of useful information, metoo. :D

The depth of the well itself is actually something of a plot element: Levi wanted somewhere that he couldn't climb or leap out of while in his state. Luckily for him, his beastly self is more a dumb animal (albeit a fundamentally destructive one) than a thinking creature, and so it doesn't think to try and use the very chain he used to climb down to pull itself out.
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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PeteMork
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by PeteMork » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:30 pm

SpartanAltego wrote:...The depth of the well itself is actually something of a plot element: Levi wanted somewhere that he couldn't climb or leap out of while in his state. Luckily for him, his beastly self is more a dumb animal (albeit a fundamentally destructive one) than a thinking creature, and so it doesn't think to try and use the very chain he used to climb down to pull itself out.
Interesting. It looks like Levi may have found a way to neutralize his curse--something Eli has yet to discover for herself at this point... :(
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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ltroifanatic
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by ltroifanatic » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:26 am

Wow.A werewolf.I didn't see it coming.I thought he was a vampire and I kept asking myself "what about the sun?..It can still get down the well"..I'm really enjoying this story Spartan and can't wait for your next instalement.I think we're in for a fun time.. :D :D
Please Oskar.Be me for a little while.

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