Let the Long Night End (Complete)

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gkmoberg1
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by gkmoberg1 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:57 am

I'll stick my neck out (err, umm) and admit I'm way behind. Or, better, I'll admit I'm behind ("I am behind!!") and am working on catching up. That sounds better.

Completely boring aside: I have a new job and am yet getting used to the new daily routine for it. Whereas before I had a very short commute (as in I was working at home :lol: ), now I have a long commute, daily, by train. What I have done is save off all the chapters for this story. I am then reading them on the train using a little notebook. I have re-read chapter 5 as that is where I had stopped. Then ch 6 and now I'm a good way into ch 7. Tomorrow (Monday) morning, I'll likely be through into ch 8.

I'm at the point when Milton and Oskar come back and discover Eli is no longer in hibernation, find him, and learn what has happened in Eli's first moments of being awake. Oh boy! I am VERY curious to see how Milton is going to handle this - him being, well, the shepherd of this flock.

I am also very intrigued and enjoying the involvement of Abby! Very clever entanglement.

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:48 am

gkmoberg1 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:57 am
I'll stick my neck out (err, umm) and admit I'm way behind. Or, better, I'll admit I'm behind ("I am behind!!") and am working on catching up. That sounds better.

Completely boring aside: I have a new job and am yet getting used to the new daily routine for it. Whereas before I had a very short commute (as in I was working at home :lol: ), now I have a long commute, daily, by train. What I have done is save off all the chapters for this story. I am then reading them on the train using a little notebook. I have re-read chapter 5 as that is where I had stopped. Then ch 6 and now I'm a good way into ch 7. Tomorrow (Monday) morning, I'll likely be through into ch 8.

I'm at the point when Milton and Oskar come back and discover Eli is no longer in hibernation, find him, and learn what has happened in Eli's first moments of being awake. Oh boy! I am VERY curious to see how Milton is going to handle this - him being, well, the shepherd of this flock.

I am also very intrigued and enjoying the involvement of Abby! Very clever entanglement.
Welcome back, GK! You were missed. :D
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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metoo
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:02 pm

SpartanAltego wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 pm
As usual, I'm thrilled you have shared your observations with me metoo. Some of it comes down to differences in taste, of course, but there are a few things you pointed out that have me considering means of repair - or that require perhaps a bit of elaboration on my part. I'll start from the top and work my way down. Here goes!
Thanks. It's a risky task, trying to discuss someone else's work.
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 pm
So, firstly, we have the use of "hunt" as terminology. I considered Oskar choosing his words a little more obliquely when sharing the abbreviated rendition of the novel, but decided against it for a couple reasons. One is that Oskar knows Levi well enough to take a direct approach, knowing that his 'cousin' is more likely to respond positively to blunt honesty than to word-play, even if it is technically true. A bit hypocritical, given Levi's own fondness for conversational games, but nobody said he was perfect. The second reason has to do with preserving the beat that I ended up following from effectively the beginning of the story to now: hunting. Hunting, for physical, emotional, and spiritual gain seems to have become a recurrent theme and I wanted to reinforce that again with this chapter. A bit of narrative fiat for the sake of symmetry, I admit, and I'll consider rewriting the exchange when I undertake the grand process of doing a second draft through of all of LtLNE after it has been completed. For that, feedback like this is invaluable. :D
I think I'd like to elaborate some on why I think Oskar wouldn't say that Eli came to hunt.

Like I wrote before, I'm rather sure that Eli wouldn't use the term himself. Hunting is considered a sport, and has been so for centuries, if not millennia. I'm positive that Eli doesn't consider his nightly activities to be a sport.

However, a more important reason for Oskar not to use the term is that it focuses on Eli as a predator. For Oskar, this isn't what Eli is about. Far from it. So I still maintain that Oskar would say that Eli came to Blackeberg for the same reason as anyone, to live there.

I think that was the actual truth. Eli could feed anywhere, but finding an apartment on short notice isn't easy. Håkan happened to find one in Blackeberg, so to Blackeberg they went. To live there. That Eli would kill some people in Blackeberg would just be an obvious consequence of him living there, no need to point it out.
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 pm
[Stuff left out.]

Personally, I find it tough to swallow Eli being as fearful as he may've been when first turned as a child. Throughout the novel he shows at several points that he is both independent, reasonably calm under duress (the only exceptions being his naked terror when he realizes Hakan has revived and his fear when he sees Oskar drowning in the pool) and even somewhat aggressive to perceived threats rather than passive or defensive. He certainly strikes me as cautious, without a doubt, but I don't think outright fear, the emotion that paralyzes rather than galvanizes, is something he has needed to feel on an especially frequent basis for at least some time. At least not to the extent that it would override his ability to think and act. Eli comes across to me as being one of those rare people who are psychologically 'hardy' and weather duress without emotional compromise far more readily than most.
I actually agree - I think your are right that Eli doesn't live in a permanent state of fear. However, I think the quote below makes Eli too hard, too insensitive.
Eli wasn’t afraid. Concerned, yes. But fear was not an emotion he experienced often.
But I think it's possible to express the idea differently. Perhaps like this:
Eli wasn’t afraid. Concerned, yes. But fear was an emotion he seemed to have forgotten.
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 pm
I may've written the dialogue between Eli and Milton a little too opaquely regarding the "men and monsters" bit. That was meant to be Milton signalling to Eli that, yes, he knows Eli is in fact a boy and not a girl. Eli's shock is from Milton's awareness of that fact, since it seems that he considered such a revelation to be meaningful when he told Oskar. Maybe it would be less significant for others to know but that's just my impression.
Oh, I see. Well, I certainly didn't understand that you (or Milton) was referring to Eli's gender. You probably should make that somewhat more obvious... ;-)
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 pm
And last but not least - Eli's impression of Milton. Mostly going to chalk this up to a difference of perspective again, but for my part the intended reading of that scene was not so much that Milton was trying to impress Eli (or that he was at all impressed) but more subtly signalling that he knows a little more than Eli might think and has no intention of being played. Eli isn't really considering himself the same as Milton - rather, he's internalizing a new piece of information in his mental profile of the man. Making note of it, so to speak.
Yes, I understand. Milton needs to tell Eli this about himself, in order to establish a mutual understanding. Now, I assume that Milton isn't happy about this aspect of his past. If that is indeed so, he would want to convey that, too.
I know killing, Eli,” Milton smiles coldly. “And I know it gets easier every time you do it.”
To me, this appears like Harry Callahan rather than the (as I assume) repentant Milton.

I started considering what Milton would say instead, and how, but I decided to leave it to you. After all, it's your story. :)
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 pm
Phew. All this has put me in a very LtLNE writing mood. I think I'll go do that right now... 8-)
Good!
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:17 pm

metoo wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:02 pm
I actually agree - I think your are right that Eli doesn't live in a permanent state of fear. However, I think the quote below makes Eli too hard, too insensitive.
Eli wasn’t afraid. Concerned, yes. But fear was not an emotion he experienced often.
But I think it's possible to express the idea differently. Perhaps like this:
Eli wasn’t afraid. Concerned, yes. But fear was an emotion he seemed to have forgotten.
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 pm
And last but not least - Eli's impression of Milton. Mostly going to chalk this up to a difference of perspective again, but for my part the intended reading of that scene was not so much that Milton was trying to impress Eli (or that he was at all impressed) but more subtly signalling that he knows a little more than Eli might think and has no intention of being played. Eli isn't really considering himself the same as Milton - rather, he's internalizing a new piece of information in his mental profile of the man. Making note of it, so to speak.
Yes, I understand. Milton needs to tell Eli this about himself, in order to establish a mutual understanding. Now, I assume that Milton isn't happy about this aspect of his past. If that is indeed so, he would want to convey that, too.
I know killing, Eli,” Milton smiles coldly. “And I know it gets easier every time you do it.”
To me, this appears like Harry Callahan rather than the (as I assume) repentant Milton.

I started considering what Milton would say instead, and how, but I decided to leave it to you. After all, it's your story. :)
Your proposed rewrite of that particular line certainly has my approval. It even echoes the original line of “I guess I’ve forgotten how.” Nice!

As for Milton, I can see now how he could come across as darker than intended in that moment. I’ll think on it some more, but do feel free to share your ideas on what you think Milton would say. There’s nothing more exciting than someone saying “I see your character differently than you” because it means that interpretation is happening. That’s my favorite part of the writing process. :D
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:33 am

SpartanAltego wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:17 pm
Your proposed rewrite of that particular line certainly has my approval. It even echoes the original line of “I guess I’ve forgotten how.” Nice!
Thanks.
SpartanAltego wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:17 pm
As for Milton, I can see now how he could come across as darker than intended in that moment. I’ll think on it some more, but do feel free to share your ideas on what you think Milton would say. There’s nothing more exciting than someone saying “I see your character differently than you” because it means that interpretation is happening. That’s my favorite part of the writing process. :D
Ok, I'll see what I can come up with. Later, though - like I said before, I started and found it difficult, but I also felt reluctant to prescribe how to write your story...

In the meanwhile I have an alternative for the "to hunt" line. Two, actually.

The original, for reference:
Oskar blows air through his nose. “Okay. Well…Eli came into the town I lived in. To hunt,” he pauses to watch Levi warily.
This one keeps the mood of yours, but gets rid of the word "hunt". It also goes more bluntly to the point:
Oskar blows air through his nose. “Okay. Well…Eli came into the town I lived in. To kill people.” He pauses to watch Levi warily.

My other one is completely different, as a contrast:
Oskar blows air through his nose. “Okay. Well…Eli came into the town I lived in. To see me.”
Levi couldn't hide his surprise. "She did?"
Oskar smiles. "Not really. But sometimes it seems so. Like destiny, you know."


Obviously, my second version would send the dialogue off in a different direction, so it isn't really an alternative. Still, it's something Oskar could have said in that situation, I think, and it lets Oskar tell Levi something important about his relation to Eli.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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metoo
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:21 pm

Ok, now for the alternative to Milton's line.

The original, for reference:
“And you’ve probably done it alone countless times before then. I know killing, Eli,” Milton smiles coldly. “And I know it gets easier every time you do it.”
My trouble with this line is that it appears almost like Milton is bragging about being a killer, like he is trying to impress Eli. But I think that isn't the intention.

My impression of Milton is as follows:

Milton has killed people in his past, many times. We don't yet know how and why, perhaps we will learn that later, perhaps never. It doesn't matter. But Milton has killed people, and he isn't proud of this chapter of his past. On the contrary, he is ashamed of it. Still, his experience tells him that killing people becomes less difficult after doing it a few times.

However, I feel that Milton wouldn't say it becomes easy, even though this might have been his own actual experience. Because he doesn't want it to be easy. He is disgusted at how easy it eventually became for himself, and he wants it to have turned hard again. But he doesn't know if it has. Maybe he still is a ruthless killer, and that worries him.

And then Eli comes around and kills Milton's neighbour, and Milton has no choice but to cover it up. Milton detests Eli for that.

He loves Levi, though, and since Oskar is Levi's friend, he loves Oskar too. However, since Oskar loves Eli, Milton unfortunately has to accept Eli.

But not without reservations. So he decides to tell Eli about those, and arranges for them to be left alone.

He opens up lightly, with an observation about Oskar's relation to Eli. He is friendly and empathetic, builds trust.

Then he shifts direction, telling Eli that he had seen through Eli's charade with the prayer. He continues by facing Eli with what he believes Eli really felt about killing Milton's neighbour: very little. Doing horrible things many times numbs, he seems to mean. Then he decides to reinforce his argument by revealing that he knows this by experience.
He would want to be frank, not appear to excuse himself. But he would also want to avoid appearing to be proud of it.

Perhaps like this:
“And you’ve probably done it alone countless times before then. I know killing, Eli,” Milton says, sternly looking into Eli's eyes. “And I know that if you do it many times, it eventually stops being difficult.”
Last edited by metoo on Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by ltroifanatic » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:38 am

Great alternative lines Metoo.I had always assumed that Milton was speaking about seeing Levi kill and seeing how it changed him.Killing becoming easier with each victim.He tells Eli this as he can see it has happened to her.If Milton has killed was it when he was a priest or before he found God? Catholicism has a lovely "out" clause.If you confess your sins and are truly sorry then God will forgive you.Maybe he hopes that Eli,Levi and himself will be forgiven. :think: Spartan's story is humming along nicely.Love it. :wub:
Please Oskar.Be me for a little while.

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:33 am

ltroifanatic wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:38 am
Great alternative lines Metoo.I had always assumed that Milton was speaking about seeing Levi kill and seeing how it changed him.Killing becoming easier with each victim.He tells Eli this as he can see it has happened to her.If Milton has killed was it when he was a priest or before he found God? Catholicism has a lovely "out" clause.If you confess your sins and are truly sorry then God will forgive you.Maybe he hopes that Eli,Levi and himself will be forgiven. :think: Spartan's story is humming along nicely.Love it. :wub:
Metoo, I’ll be adding your lines into the revised draft of that chapter. Very well done - reddens the cheeks a little to see someone else portray my own character in a better way. :shock:

Geoff brings up an interesting point - what is Milton’s experience with death and does it relate to Levi’s condition? To which I can only give this cryptic answer: Yes and no. If you look back through Part II and VII there are some hints as to Milton’s past experiences that may help to understand his guilt. There’s an obvious answer which is relevant but not the core issue, and a far more hidden answer that will eventually be made clear.

Part X continues to steadily develop, really taking the time to marinate this particular entry. So close to the end, yet still so far...
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:05 am

SpartanAltego wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:33 am
Metoo, I’ll be adding your lines into the revised draft of that chapter. Very well done - reddens the cheeks a little to see someone else portray my own character in a better way. :shock:
I feel honoured!
SpartanAltego wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:33 am
Geoff brings up an interesting point - what is Milton’s experience with death and does it relate to Levi’s condition? To which I can only give this cryptic answer: Yes and no. If you look back through Part II and VII there are some hints as to Milton’s past experiences that may help to understand his guilt. There’s an obvious answer which is relevant but not the core issue, and a far more hidden answer that will eventually be made clear.
Well, I have my own ideas about Milton's prehistory, but I will keep shut about them and wait to see what yours might be. ;-)
SpartanAltego wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:33 am
Part X continues to steadily develop, really taking the time to marinate this particular entry. So close to the end, yet still so far...
Take your time! (But keep it short, please...)
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:55 pm

News on the update: Part X has been put up...as the second half of Part IX! See, I came to the realization that I may've been too hasty in putting up Part IX originally as it was. There was still so many events, conversations, and plot elements I needed to get done and they were distracting from what I wanted the core of Part X to be. So I went back to Part IX and added what I've written to it, doubling the length! So for the new material, you can head down to where Part IX originally ended and go from there!

Thanks a bunch for your patience, everyone, and your support. I hope you enjoy what I've tentatively titled as "Part 9B". Heh. :)

Now to get started on the true Part X!
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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