When I am With You

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metoo
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Re: When I am With You

Post by metoo » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:24 am

dom-on-ho wrote:From what I Understand, Swedish does have gender neutral pronouns.
Originally from here;

Not really. We have the reflexive pronouns sig and sin/sitt/sina, which are gender neutral, and which would be translated into English himself/herself/itself/themselves, and his/her/its/their.

Swedish also allows using determinate form instead of a pronoun to indicate possessivity, like this:
Eli skakade på huvudet. Eli shook his head (literally: Eli shook the head.)
In this case, it's obvious what head Eli was shaking - his own - and thus the determinate is normally used. As you can see, Eli's gender is hidden in the Swedish version.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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dongregg
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Re: When I am With You

Post by dongregg » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:38 am

Well, dear friends, after letting "When I Am With You" sit for nine months, I decided to modify parts of it. Principally, I made explicit Eli's resentment at having to get blood on her own. Grownups made her the way she is, so why should she have to take it all on herself? It helps form a rationale for why she went from being rude to Oskar at the second meeting to being eager to see him at the third meeting. At the time of the second meeting, she was still seething at Håkan for muffing his attempt the night before. Of course, we see that Oskar's act of kindness in lending her the Rubik's cube was a turning point, but resentment toward grownups is credible. It also could be seen as mirroring Oskar's isolation from grownups. And I think it explains why Eli was so furious at Håkan for screwing up--it tapped into her longstanding anger at being cheated out of her childhood plus cursed to a horrid existence.

I think this is how you get to the modified story:

http://let-the-right-one-in.com/fancont ... n-i-am-you
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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PeteMork
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Re: When I am With You

Post by PeteMork » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:25 pm

dongregg wrote:Well, dear friends, after letting "When I Am With You" sit for nine months, I decided to modify parts of it. Principally, I made explicit Eli's resentment at having to get blood on her own. Grownups made her the way she is, so why should she have to take it all on herself? It helps form a rationale for why she went from being rude to Oskar at the second meeting to being eager to see him at the third meeting. At the time of the second meeting, she was still seething at Håkan for muffing his attempt the night before. Of course, we see that Oskar's act of kindness in lending her the Rubik's cube was a turning point, but resentment toward grownups is credible. It also could be seen as mirroring Oskar's isolation from grownups. And I think it explains why Eli was so furious at Håkan for screwing up--it tapped into her longstanding anger at being cheated out of her childhood plus cursed to a horrid existence.

I think this is how you get to the modified story:

http://let-the-right-one-in.com/fancont ... n-i-am-you
I think by adding elements of Eli's resentment, or at least the reasons behind them, you've filled in a few of the blanks; at least to someone who is reading your FF as a stand-alone tale. To be honest, Eli's character is so well-defined in my own mind, I can't really tell if your additions are necessary. I can no longer be either detached from or objective about her. :wub:

I AM happy to see you have taken on the difficult task of writing your FF mostly in the present tense. I think the only other FF writer who successfully met this challenge was DMt.
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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dongregg
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Re: When I am With You

Post by dongregg » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:36 am

PeteMork wrote:I think by adding elements of Eli's resentment, or at least the reasons behind them, you've filled in a few of the blanks; at least to someone who is reading your FF as a stand-alone tale. To be honest, Eli's character is so well-defined in my own mind, I can't really tell if your additions are necessary. I can no longer be either detached from or objective about her. :wub:
Thanks, PeteMork. I was acutely aware when writing the tale of the few places where I imported elements from the novel--the words Elias and Håkan don't appear in the film, for example. Adding the mutilation aspect is clearly imported, but I feel it filled a gap as well as added to why Eli--like Oskar--is only comfortable in a kid world.

As to "well defined In my own mind"--Yes! The urge to write this as a minimalist story was the desire to present Eli as I see her. That would be Eli as a simple child. Not a backward child or one lacking in intelligence, but a child facing outward, working puzzles to occupy her time. Not a child who reads books or who thinks a lot. Still largely a child of a rural, peasant setting. She learned to spell and print words, but she uses a 200-year-old style of forming her letters. I see her quiet mind in contrast to Oskar's rather busy mind--Eli's mind in the moment and Oskar's mind anywhere but in the moment.
PeteMork wrote:I AM happy to see you have taken on the difficult task of writing your FF mostly in the present tense. I think the only other FF writer who successfully met this challenge was DMt.
It's an honor to be compared to DMt.

Telling the story in the present tense served to hide the omniscient adult narrator from the reader. It allowed me to focus almost completely on what Eli is seeing, hearing, feeling, and (occasionally) thinking. It also allowed me to use the language of kids rather than the grownup language of an adult narrator (with a few exceptions). It let me keep the vocabulary simple and the sentences short. Where the narrator must speak (which is a lot), I used slight of hand to minimize the reader's awareness of it. It's mostly just the difference between "Eli came back into the room" and "Eli goes back into the room." It contributes to the feeling that the events are happening as you read them, of course, but more important to me is that there is no intrusive adult voice drawing attention to itself.

Therefore, I was of two minds when I added the part about Eli's resentment. It not only imports stuff not in the film, but it takes the reader somewhat out of the moment. Honestly, I probably would not have added this fairly minor rewrite if it were not for a_c_l's deep insight into what Oskar means to Eli--not just a playmate for an exceeding lonely vampire girl, but a chance to retrieve the happy childhood that was snatched from her.

And it was by no means a way of illuminating the gender issues of JAL/TA's telling. I consider that the big issue for Eli is not how to be a boy or girl or neither, but how to be more human, a companion who is acceptable to Oskar. And that is what she becomes.

It means a lot to me that you still value "When I Am With You," especially when I consider the vast tale of Oskar and Eli that you have created
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: When I am With You

Post by dongregg » Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:48 am

Epilogue added: proper attribution of the story, characters, and ideas to JAL; and the raison d'être for my retelling the story from Eli's point of view.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: When I am With You

Post by dongregg » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:32 am

After a stressful spell, or in the midst of life's quotidian turmoil, I turn again to this fan fiction. I've said elsewhere that all I have to do to get to a good place in my head is to say "Eli..." And reading this gently-paced story has a similarly calming effect on me. That is so in part, I think, because the story presents Eli's quiet mind as finely tuned to the present, child-like, with little reason or inclination to dwell on the past or to wonder much beyond tomorrow. Eli...
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: When I am With You

Post by gkmoberg1 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:56 am

Your depiction of Eli as not being one with herself, and the way this dissolves, is striking.

The story quickly centers on Eli. Yet it's not from a first person point of view. We travel along listening to the narration of how 'she' does this and 'she' thinks that. And then comes the point of the first encounter with Oskar - her friend-to-be. She too in these moments is just like the narrative voice: she's looking at the scene as if she too were outside herself looking at a story that centers on her. She hears herself saying many things, yet she's not in control.

Even in the second meeting, where they are making their first real conversation, she still feels vacant from the scene. Notice how you don't have any actual quotes of the dialog. There's rather the "she accepts it [the cube] from him". So, here too she remains detached from herself, just as does the narrative.

Same again for the third meeting. "Only when the boy challenges her" and other bits are given to convey the story. We continue to be 'in' on her thinking - which gives a delightful fresh view on her state (thanks!!) - yet the condition continues where it feels as if she is still separate from herself.

This separation continues down to the point where the two have their time at the jungle gym wherein Oskar presents her with the Morse Code sheet. Here finally the story breaks through into direct dialog - albeit without quotes.
The author dongregg wrote:Eli tells Oskar that he must hit back. Oskar avoids looking at her. He mumbles that there are three of them. She tells him he must hit back even harder. Oskar mutters, But if they...? Then I'll help you, Eli says
I think this is the first point of the story where Eli is presented as one with herself. And it comes at a moment of heightened tension. Deliberate or not on your part, it's brilliant. At the point where she moves to want to come to the active defense of somebody, to be involved in something other than sloughing through the passages of years, she breaks through into the present moment.

Nicely this is preceded with a closing of that distance. At the start of that evenings meetup we get "she feels she can ask him about the fresh bandage on his cheek". The story isn't quite to the point of using direct dialog, but it's a lot closer than the initial encounters were we had "she hears herself asking the boy", which is clearly disassociated.

What this is saying is that she's been brought back to the moment and away from the dissociative frame of mind she had for perhaps, well, a very long time. Their friendship, Oskar, the emotions that have been filling her since getting to know him are what breaks her away from her initial state. Upon the realization that her friend is in the way of physical harm that she pulls herself direct into the moment.

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Re: When I am With You

Post by gkmoberg1 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:17 am

dongregg wrote:I would like to know how you perceive the way I handled gender in "When I Am With You." It's part of the film that can't be ignored, and I didn't ignore it, but... well, just let me know, please.
To me, Eli -in the film- is a girl. As sauvin points out elsewhere, Lina acts like a girl and runs like a girl. In the many times that I saw the film before I was able to find and read the book, and we're talking about many watchings of the film, I only saw a girl. Even the brief peek scene did not cause me to consider that she might be or had once been a boy. Even when I see the film now, I see Eli as a 12 yr old girl. I think the film works perfectly in that interpretation.

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Re: When I am With You

Post by dongregg » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:07 am

gkmoberg1 wrote:Your depiction of Eli as not being one with herself, and the way this dissolves, is striking.

The story quickly centers on Eli. Yet it's not from a first person point of view. We travel along listening to the narration of how 'she' does this and 'she' thinks that. And then comes the point of the first encounter with Oskar - her friend-to-be. She too in these moments is just like the narrative voice: she's looking at the scene as if she too were outside herself looking at a story that centers on her. She hears herself saying many things, yet she's not in control.

Even in the second meeting, where they are making their first real conversation, she still feels vacant from the scene. Notice how you don't have any actual quotes of the dialog. There's rather the "she accepts it [the cube] from him". So, here too she remains detached from herself, just as does the narrative.

Same again for the third meeting. "Only when the boy challenges her" and other bits are given to convey the story. We continue to be 'in' on her thinking - which gives a delightful fresh view on her state (thanks!!) - yet the condition continues where it feels as if she is still separate from herself.

This separation continues down to the point where the two have their time at the jungle gym wherein Oskar presents her with the Morse Code sheet. Here finally the story breaks through into direct dialog - albeit without quotes.
The author dongregg wrote:Eli tells Oskar that he must hit back. Oskar avoids looking at her. He mumbles that there are three of them. She tells him he must hit back even harder. Oskar mutters, But if they...? Then I'll help you, Eli says
I think this is the first point of the story where Eli is presented as one with herself. And it comes at a moment of heightened tension. Deliberate or not on your part, it's brilliant. At the point where she moves to want to come to the active defense of somebody, to be involved in something other than sloughing through the passages of years, she breaks through into the present moment.

Nicely this is preceded with a closing of that distance. At the start of that evenings meetup we get "she feels she can ask him about the fresh bandage on his cheek". The story isn't quite to the point of using direct dialog, but it's a lot closer than the initial encounters were we had "she hears herself asking the boy", which is clearly disassociated.

What this is saying is that she's been brought back to the moment and away from the dissociative frame of mind she had for perhaps, well, a very long time. Their friendship, Oskar, the emotions that have been filling her since getting to know him are what breaks her away from her initial state. Upon the realization that her friend is in the way of physical harm that she pulls herself direct into the moment.
Your take is so remarkably clarifying. I can't take any credit for the way Eli moves from being dissociated to becoming one with herself. It's exactly what happens in the film. That lets my wording change as Eli changes. By staying true to the film and, at the same time, the feelings it engendered in me, we can see her changing -- and being pretty far behind the curve of understanding the changes. So, at first she is paying attention to meaning rather than to specific words. And yes, a big turning point for her is when she actually feels more sorry for Oskar (hit back!) than she does for herself. Until she acknowledges how fragile and vulnerable Oskar is, he could just seem to her to be a diversion from her boredom and loneliness, an exciting island in a long life of (mostly) sullen indifference. She misconstrues the reasons for her excitement and desire to see Oskar and to clean up for him. Her body gets it and draws the bath for her. Håkan gets it and hates it. She has to be challenged by Oskar's asking her to go steady before she questions any of her feelings for him. Or questions any of her feelings about anything. A_c_l has hit it on the head when he points out that Eli isn't just delighted to have a playmate; she is getting in touch with her happiness from before she was cruelly turned. She is able to be a child again. From feeling sorry for Oskar and wanting to help him to realizing she can't just do her vampire disappearing act when things get too hot, Eli is coming together as the true Eli, the human child who can care again and who can feel deeply for another person. And that's what JAL and TA give us, isn't it? So I can't take credit for accidental brilliance. After all, I just followed a simple plan -- write only what Eli would be aware of; keep it simple, on a kid level; and keep it in the present. In the first item, Eli's awareness, she doesn't strongly register the specific things Oskar asks her about her birthday, which is why no specific dialogue kicks in yet. She only registers that she is way out of her depth when it comes to chatting him up. Likewise, she and Oskar are unaware of the hand play at the glass door, so I couldn't put in one of the most endearing and powerful scenes. Same with her little wiggle on the jungle gym. As much as possible, I tried to keep it all from Eli's point of view, not from the point of view of the cinema audience. I just followed that simple scheme. Any magic is genuinely the magic of the film; but this I take credit for, for managing to not get too much in the way of the magic.

But GK, I feel the tears begin to well up again. Who could not fall crazy in love with this poor lost child?
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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Re: When I am With You

Post by dongregg » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:04 pm

gkmoberg1 wrote:
dongregg wrote:I would like to know how you perceive the way I handled gender in "When I Am With You." It's part of the film that can't be ignored, and I didn't ignore it, but... well, just let me know, please.

To me, Eli -in the film- is a girl. As sauvin points out elsewhere, Lina acts like a girl and runs like a girl. In the many times that I saw the film before I was able to find and read the book, and we're talking about many watchings of the film, I only saw a girl. Even the brief peek scene did not cause me to consider that she might be or had once been a boy. Even when I see the film now, I see Eli as a 12 yr old girl. I think the film works perfectly in that interpretation.
Thanks for responding to the gender part. It's in the film, so it's in "When I Am With You." However, as the film progresses (and hence as my mash up tracks along with the film), it becomes increasingly difficult to present Eli as anything but a girl in love with a boy. Not even as an androgynous vampire, although TA did a few things to present it that way. From the time Oskar taps on Eli's door right through to the train scene, Eli is just a girl and nothing but a girl. StrayAway points out how girly it looks when Eli pulls her hair out from the red sweater. I can't do that. I'm a guy. I'd just start gabbing my hair and jerking it free. But it's really all the way through the film. What boy and/or androgynous vampire showers and puts on clean clothes to go out to play with a boy? And girls look at guys differently than guys look at girls. Guys glance, or focus on a feature. Girls' eyes bore right into your soul. Eli: "Do I smell better?" (Eyes fixed on Oskar's face.) Oskar: looks away. When Eli is showing him how to do the Rubik's cube, Oskar is looking at her hair or something, a feature. There are exception, but we mostly see Oskar acting like a boy and Eli responding like a girl. As you say, the film works perfectly with Eli as a 12-year-old girl. I will add another StrayAway observation: In spite of the lip service to Eli not being a girl, TA filmed her as a girl in scene after scene--the way she walks, moves, all of it. And Lina herself gives TA full credit for everything you see of her in the film. I do too.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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