Quick Bright Things

A forum for discussing fan fiction related to Let The Right One In
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PeteMork
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Re: Quick Bright Things

Post by PeteMork » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:24 pm

metoo wrote:Yes, it has, and I don’t believe it would realistically work. Now, you might object that being a vampire is already unrealistic, which of course is true. However, stories by JAL are generally very realistic, with just a small amount of supernatural horror added. You might say that there usually is a realistic realm and a supernatural one, where the realistic realm is completely plausible. This method to obtain blood resides firmly in the realistic realm, where I think it fails. I have to stretch my belief too far to accept it. A blood loss of one litre is considered dangerous, see Wikipedia, and would plausibly be detected by hospital staff. Oskar wouldn’t be able to continue doing this for long.

Another trouble with this particular story is that Oskar is able to get a job at a hospital using a fake identity. That is not very realistic, since in Sweden you need to hand over your so-called personnummer, “personal identity number”, when being employed. The personnummer is a code that is used everywhere to identify an individual. An employer such as a hospital uses the personnummer for its own administrative purposes, and it is needed for taxation. Swedish employers pay the income taxes of their employees directly to the authorities, and then they need the personnummer to indicate for whom the tax is paid. To fake an identity is therefore not that simple, since a fake personnummer would be discovered rather quickly.

And, of course, Oskar would want to get paid for his work at the hospital. For which he would need a bank account. For which he would need a personnummer, again.
Questions: This personal ID sounds like a relatively-easy-to-fake version of the U.S. Social Security number (which is also easy to fake). And these are faked for employment in the U.S. all the time by criminals trying to evade capture over the long term, or for other reasons, such as anonymity. Is there something about the personnummer that makes it impossible to fake?

Oskar seldom works anywhere for more than a year in a low-level janitorial-type position. And, if the woman in the story is the norm, Oskar seems to pick relatively young, healthy victims. By the time a pattern could be established in a normally-trusting environment, they'd be gone. (In the U.S., there was a case where a nurse regularly murdered patients, and it took years to track her down.) In any case, once suspicions were aroused they'd leave immediately.

income taxes: I'm not sure why Sweden's methods would have to be any better that those in the U.S. at detecting fraud. And working criminals here can evade the authorities for years, even in the computer age, which was certainly not at its peak in those days.

Are all paychecks in Sweden deposited directly to bank accounts? Or can they be cashed at any bank by giving a fake personnumer or perhaps a drivers license. (also easily faked.)

In any case, even if you are completely correct, none of these 'weaknesses' have any effect on my ability to 'suspend disbelief' in this well-written and conceived tale of tragedy and loneliness. :(
Last edited by PeteMork on Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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SpartanAltego
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Re: Quick Bright Things

Post by SpartanAltego » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:54 am

Read this after a recommendation during the LTROI group call last night, and found it to be quite good. Oskar came up with a reasonably plausible means of non-lethally providing Eli sustenance and as a result they are happy and much less nomadic than they would have to be otherwise. The element of mythology and deities payed off in an absolutely heartrending final few passages, equal parts beautiful and mournful.

Of course, it all sits balanced on a razor's edge. And no matter how lucky Oskar and Eli have been, there's no guarantee they will always be lucky in the future. It's a frail paradise, as the conclusion exhibits. Bright, yet quick. But things aren't beautiful because they last forever; they're beautiful despite their fragility.

Two thumbs up. Bravo.
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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ltroifanatic
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Re: Quick Bright Things

Post by ltroifanatic » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:52 am

It was just beautiful.So sad.So beautiful.I love stories that give Eli some relief from his terrible curse although this story didn't have a happy ending.It came highly recommended and I know why now. :wub:
Please Oskar.Be me for a little while.

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metoo
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Re: Quick Bright Things

Post by metoo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:20 am

PeteMork wrote:Questions: This personal ID sounds like a relatively-easy-to-fake version of the U.S. Social Security number (which is also easy to fake). And these are faked for employment in the U.S. all the time by criminals trying to evade capture over the long term, or for other reasons, such as anonymity. Is there something about the personnummer that makes it impossible to fake?
Yes. The number itself is easy enough fo fake, if you know how it's constructed, but those numbers are registered in the national population register. If there is no record the number is fake, even if it is made up the correct way. Now, you might think that Oskar could "borrow" a true id from someone else, but he would then need to get his hands on one. Without access to the register, this is not really possible. Furthermore, a borrowed id would become discovered eventually. If no sooner, then when the true owner gets his documents and forms for the yearly income declaration virtually every adult person have to deliver to the taxation authorities. The forms are pre-filled with what the tax offices know about your salary, bank savings, etc, so the true owner of a personnummer would notice if someone else had been using his identity.

There is also the issue of folkbokföringsadress, registered address. Every living person is registered on an address, where you are supposed to live.
PeteMork wrote:Oskar seldom works anywhere for more than a year in a low-level janitorial-type position. And, if the woman in the story is the norm, Oskar seems to pick relatively young, healthy victims. By the time a pattern could be established in a normally-trusting environment, they'd be gone. (In the U.S., there was a case where a nurse regularly murdered patients, and it took years to track her down.) In any case, once suspicions were aroused they'd leave immediately.
It seems that a substantial blood loss has a distinct set of signs that a doctor would likely notice, if they showed up in a patient that should not have those. A post-op patient would likely be closer monitored than other patients in this regard, since a sudden blood loss could be the sign of internal bleeding. Also, it's a question of a substantial number - twice a week the year around, since it seems this story is based on the film only, where there is no mentioning of Eli sleeping about half the time. That's a hundred patients in a single hospital per year. In a single department on top of that (surgery). Nah, I don't believe it.
PeteMork wrote:income taxes: I'm not sure why Sweden's methods would have to be any better that those in the U.S. at detecting fraud. And working criminals here can evade the authorities for years, even in the computer age, which was certainly not at its peak in those days.
Sweden isn't the US. You might be able to evade the authorities and live without being registered ("paperless") in Sweden, but not if you want to be employed by a large employer such as a hospital. It doesn't matter if you are just a janitor, they will use the same systems and procedures for handling your employment (and your salaries and taxes) as if you were a doctor.

However, mostly I think this is a question of differences in priorities. The US society prioritises personal freedom, while in Sweden we have a strong emphasis on social security. The machinery to provide this is integrated to the Swedish society to a degree I think Americans would not believe. Thus, we have this personnummer that is used everywhere, since it is convenient.
PeteMork wrote:Are all paychecks in Sweden deposited directly to bank accounts? Or can they be cashed at any bank by giving a fake personnumer or perhaps a drivers license. (also easily faked.)
All salary payments are deposited directly to a bank account (save for certain shady activities, which we are not talking about here). This was true in 1981, and certainly is true today. Sweden is apparently the most digitalised country in the world when it comes to monetary transactions for ordinary people. Swedes pay using pay cards and digital transactions. Personally, I have lived without physical money for a couple of years now.

Read about it here.

Btw, Swedish driving licenses are not easily faked. A driving license is the most commonly used ID in Sweden, and it has many features to make it hard to fake. It also contains the personnummer, both human readable and as a QR-code (formerly a bar code).
PeteMork wrote:In any case, even if you are completely correct, none of these 'weaknesses' have any effect on my ability to 'suspend disbelief' in this well-written and conceived tale of tragedy and loneliness
Well, I agree that the tale was well-written, but the issue was whether this method of feeding Eli is realistic. I think it's not, for the reasons I have given.
Last edited by metoo on Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:10 pm, edited 14 times in total.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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sauvin
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Re: Quick Bright Things

Post by sauvin » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:58 am

metoo wrote:
PeteMork wrote:Questions: This personal ID sounds like a relatively-easy-to-fake version of the U.S. Social Security number (which is also easy to fake). And these are faked for employment in the U.S. all the time by criminals trying to evade capture over the long term, or for other reasons, such as anonymity. Is there something about the personnummer that makes it impossible to fake?
Yes. The number itself is easy enough fo fake, if you know how it's constructed, but those numbers are registered in the national population register. If there is no record the number is fake, even if it is made up the correct way. Now, you might think that Oskar could "borrow" a true id from someone else, but he would then need to get his hands on one. Without access to the register, this is not really possible. Furthermore, a borrowed id would become discovered eventually. If no sooner, then when the true owner gets his documents and forms for the yearly income declaration virtually every adult person have to deliver to the taxation authorities. The forms are pre-filled with what the tax offices knows about your salary, bank savings, etc, so the true owner of a personnummer would notice if someone else had been using his identity.
My Oskar at 14 going on 40 wouldn't have tried to fake anything. Why bother? Find somebody who looks more or less like him, kill two birds with one stone: a meal for Eli and a new identity for Oskar. A plus: if the victim lived alone, abracadabra, a place to stay for a while!
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metoo
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Re: Quick Bright Things

Post by metoo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:06 am

sauvin wrote:My Oskar at 14 going on 40 wouldn't have tried to fake anything. Why bother? Find somebody who looks more or less like him, kill two birds with one stone: a meal for Eli and a new identity for Oskar. A plus: if the victim lived alone, abracadabra, a place to stay for a while!
Sounds plausible, but upon closer scrutiny perhaps isn't. What about relatives and other people around the victim? Employers? Wouldn't they notice and set the alarm? The stolen id would soon become useless, or rather, a liability. Sorry, sauvin... ;)
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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dongregg
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Re: Quick Bright Things

Post by dongregg » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:40 am

I object. It's a balancing act that continued by it's own audacity and luck, which happens, actually. It's not enough to find reasons to disbelieve.
“For drama to deepen, we must see the loneliness of the monster and the cunning of the innocent.”

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PeteMork
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Re: Quick Bright Things

Post by PeteMork » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:02 am

metoo wrote:
sauvin wrote:My Oskar at 14 going on 40 wouldn't have tried to fake anything. Why bother? Find somebody who looks more or less like him, kill two birds with one stone: a meal for Eli and a new identity for Oskar. A plus: if the victim lived alone, abracadabra, a place to stay for a while!
Sounds plausible, but upon closer scrutiny perhaps isn't. What about relatives and other people around the victim? Employers? Wouldn't they notice and set the alarm? The stolen id would soon become useless, or rather, a liability. Sorry, sauvin... ;)
Of course a jaded Oskar would pick a loner if he went that route. Common sense. A little reconnaissance would be all that would be required. He could even plan ahead and have a few more lined up just in case. Is there full employment in Sweden, by the way? How does Sweden handle the unemployable; the borderline mentally ill? The alcoholics and drug users? And housing for them? :think:
We never stop reading, although every book comes to an end, just as we never stop living, although death is certain. (Roberto Bolaño)

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metoo
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Re: Quick Bright Things

Post by metoo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:25 am

PeteMork wrote:Of course a jaded Oskar would pick a loner if he went that route.
Absolutely. I didn’t dispute that part, but the one of picking up ids for use.
PeteMork wrote:Common sense. A little reconnaissance would be all that would be required. He could even plan ahead and have a few more lined up just in case.
Now, that’s an interesting issue. I have been thinking about to what extent O&E with a turned Oskar would plan ahead for their feeding, but these thoughts may apply to a non-turned Oskar acting as a provider as well:

I can see several levels of planning. The basic one would be to look for suitable places for attacking people without being discovered in the act. To actively seek out suitable victims would be a more advanced level. Collecting a ‘stable’ of possible victims would be yet another level. However, any planning would increase the focus on feeding in their lives. What effect would that have on them? What level of involvement would be acceptable? I think there is a balance. To little planning increases the risk of discovery, too much would risk their sanity.

Additionally, stalking people involves a risk of being noticed. Would that risk be worthwhile?
PeteMork wrote:Is there full employment in Sweden, by the way? How does Sweden handle the unemployable; the borderline mentally ill? The alcoholics and drug users? And housing for them?
There is not full employment in Sweden, but unemployment isn’t supposed to be a catastrophe. The social insurance system is supposed to assist you economically, the healthcare system to help the mentally ill. That said, some people still drop out of the system. The problem then usually is related to alcohol or other drugs. So, you find homeless people living on the street in Sweden, too.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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