Let the Long Night End (Complete)

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SpartanAltego
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:33 am

PeteMork wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:58 am
I'm still impressed. And getting more so. Your imagery is still raw, and startles. Not for someone with a weak stomach.
Ah, it's good to be back. Thank you, everyone. :)

That's one element from the novel I hoped to keep intact: the visercal and, as you rightly put it, raw nature of the moments of violence and horror. It requires a certain...grotesque practicality in designing and showcasing your monsters. Levi growing human nails into beastly claws isn't especially remarkable or unnerving. After all, our nails grow naturally anyway and some might see growing claws as, at the very least, a novelty. Certainly there are some appeals from an outside perspective to an Eliform vampire who can 'think' their extremities into different parts, fly, and have some measure of supernatural physicality irregardless of body mass.

But having the claws grow over the human nails serves a dual purpose of visual overtaking of the human condition, and provides a far more uncomfortable picture and imagined experience for the audience. Something growing in a place with no room for it, where it doesn't belong. It's not even remotely within your control, there's nothing to bargain with, satisfy, or master. In some ways it's a more universally repulsive and wretched state than vampirism: we've seen adult vampires perfectly at ease with their horribleness and even reveling and benefitting from it. Lycanthropy is different: even the most vile of predators would suffer under such a curse, because it brings constant and inevitable cycles of pain as well as total loss of control that cannot be bargained or negotiated with. You're a slave to the moon, and few among the psychotic, the vicious and the destructive are willing to give up control and freedom.

When I originally envisioned the nail-clipping scene it was actually a bit more graphic: Levi's wolfish hands would be growing and extending out through the tips of his fingers instead of just growing keratin. So Milton would come back to find severed fingertips in the basin - yuck! But I realized that would introduce some logic problems (does Levi have to cut them off every cycle, the difficulties of working and handling objects without fingers, etc) I wasn't too keen on working around, and it was too directly brutal besides.

I was inspired for the consequences of Levi's manicure - and the still twitching bits left in the sink - by the scene where Oskar is disposing of Eli's bloodied clothing and later (or sometime around this event) spies some blood in the shower where Eli washed himself. The blood is still wriggling. That was deeply unsettling while also being light-handed, and so I've since applied that trait of being somewhat 'alive' down to the most basic attributes to all my forays (current and future) into LtROI's world.

I do apologize if these bits are hard to read, though. If necessary I can tone future sequences down or perhaps post a 'PG-13' edition and a separate 'uncensored edition for each chapter. But if you're all here then that offer is probably unnecessary, heh.
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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metoo
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:17 am

SpartanAltego wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:33 am
Certainly there are some appeals from an outside perspective to an Eliform vampire who can 'think' their extremities into different parts, fly, and have some measure of supernatural physicality irregardless of body mass.
You may find it interesting to learn that Eli’s ability to control his body is a mere vestige of what JAL was toying with in an early version of the story. There, Eli didn’t use money to pay for Tommy’s blood. Instead, Eli transformed himself into a sexy young woman before visiting Tommy in the basement. To compensate for his lack of bulk, Eli had to hollow out his back to gain the necessary size...

Note that this explains why Eli chose the dress!

Thankfully, JAL found that this ability of total transformation made Eli too powerful, so he removed it, leaving only traces behind. Furthermore, as a bonus we got the present scene including the dialogue between Eli and Tommy!

JAL wrote about this alternative scene in a thread on his forum. Sadly, the forum has been down for years...
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:52 pm

metoo wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:17 am
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:33 am
Certainly there are some appeals from an outside perspective to an Eliform vampire who can 'think' their extremities into different parts, fly, and have some measure of supernatural physicality irregardless of body mass.
You may find it interesting to learn that Eli’s ability to control his body is a mere vestige of what JAL was toying with in an early version of the story. There, Eli didn’t use money to pay for Tommy’s blood. Instead, Eli transformed himself into a sexy young woman before visiting Tommy in the basement. To compensate for his lack of bulk, Eli had to hollow out his back to gain the necessary size...

Note that this explains why Eli chose the dress!

Thankfully, JAL found that this ability of total transformation made Eli too powerful, so he removed it, leaving only traces behind. Furthermore, as a bonus we got the present scene including the dialogue between Eli and Tommy!

JAL wrote about this alternative scene in a thread on his forum. Sadly, the forum has been down for years...
That is equal parts fascinating and, well, a little unnerving. Yeesh. That would've been hard to read, and probably made the subsequent attack by Hakan's revenant that extra bit more chilling. It would also raise some interesting possibilities if one considers that perhaps Eli's child form in that rendition is one of preference rather than reality, something Oskar discovers as their relationship progresses. Hiding and revealing identity is an element already present in the narrative after all.

That actually reminds me of something: the wig man, Elias' 'sire'. During the memory sequence we are shown that, somehow, that vampire manipulates the dice in such a way as to change the result to his preference. It's a very small exhibition of power, but has a lot of curious implications and questions. Is such minor trickery something inherent to the infected condition? Unique to just that vampire (and if so, why)? Mysticism hiding in biology is, to my eye, how the infection works. What would be the biological layer that hides the supernatural source? The 'explanation.'

One consistent element of Elias as a predator is his ability to draw others in with startling effectiveness. To enthrall them. This happens to Jocke, to Oskar (who narrowly avoids becoming dinner), one could argue to Hakan although his preexisting proclivities makes that a stretch, and potentially countless other victims. Perhaps such subtle trickery is also something part and parcel of Eliform types. The wig man has his sleight of hand, Eli has his hypnotic lure, and so forth. What do you guys think?
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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metoo
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:37 pm

SpartanAltego wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:52 pm
That actually reminds me of something: the wig man, Elias' 'sire'. During the memory sequence we are shown that, somehow, that vampire manipulates the dice in such a way as to change the result to his preference. It's a very small exhibition of power, but has a lot of curious implications and questions. Is such minor trickery something inherent to the infected condition? Unique to just that vampire (and if so, why)?
The novel doesn't show Eli having any ability to manipulate objects on a distance, at least.

However, there need not be anything supernatural involved here - remember that JAL used to practise and perform magic tricks for years. It might simply have been such a trick - Eli would still not have seen the vampire lord manipulate the dice.
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:52 pm
Mysticism hiding in biology is, to my eye, how the infection works. What would be the biological layer that hides the supernatural source? The 'explanation.'
This is my view, too. Biology and magic in combination!
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:52 pm
One consistent element of Elias as a predator is his ability to draw others in with startling effectiveness. To enthrall them. This happens to Jocke, to Oskar (who narrowly avoids becoming dinner), one could argue to Hakan although his preexisting proclivities makes that a stretch, and potentially countless other victims. Perhaps such subtle trickery is also something part and parcel of Eliform types. The wig man has his sleight of hand, Eli has his hypnotic lure, and so forth. What do you guys think?
I basically don't think that Eli uses any kind of "hypnotic lure" to enthrall his victims, but read on.

Eli's success to make Jocke help him requires just some half-decent acting on Eli's part, and normal humanity on Jocke's.

The reaction of the cancer sick woman when Eli moved close to her is, however, more of an open question. I have suggested that it might have been just a normal reaction of being gently touched, but now I doubt it. The woman's reaction is too strong, to surprising to the woman herself, and too foreseen by Eli. I think JAL intended this scene to show Eli having some supernatural influence on the woman.

Then there is the hospital receptionist Maud Carlberg, who felt an unexplained and confusing urge to give Eli something, if it be only a piece of kitchen tissue.

Regarding Oskar at the jungle gym, I don't think Eli needed any hypnotic lure to enthrall him. Oskar's need of a friend was so great, and just being so close to that "girl" would have been enough to reduce Oskar's perception into just here and now. There might, however, be something else going on. Eli asks Oskar "do you want to give me a present?", and Oskar replies "yes". What happens next we all know - Eli is just about to bite when Oskar suddenly strokes Eli's cheek and thereby unwittingly saves his own life.

Now, is Oskar's reaction a result of this "urge to give" effect that Eli had on Maud Carlberg? I have been thinking so, but now I find myself less certain.

Håkan's conversion into a murderer on Eli's behalf is a more difficult issue. JAL has wisely left this out of the novel, so we don't know how Eli managed to coerce Håkan into doing this, but I'm certain that some cunning manipulation was required. Perhaps Eli was helped by some mysterious field of influence, but this is uncertain. Håkan never touches the subject.

What I find certain is that Eli does posses some ability to influence the mental state of people in his vicinity in subtle ways. However, he cannot overpower people using it. I especially don't think it is useful as a hypnotic lure - Eli needs to lure people by other means before he is close enough to use this rather weak power.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:25 pm

metoo wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:37 pm
The novel doesn't show Eli having any ability to manipulate objects on a distance, at least.

However, there need not be anything supernatural involved here - remember that JAL used to practise and perform magic tricks for years. It might simply have been such a trick - Eli would still not have seen the vampire lord manipulate the dice.
SpartanAltego wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:52 pm
Mysticism hiding in biology is, to my eye, how the infection works. What would be the biological layer that hides the supernatural source? The 'explanation.'
This is my view, too. Biology and magic in combination!

I basically don't think that Eli uses any kind of "hypnotic lure" to enthrall his victims, but read on.

Eli's success to make Jocke help him requires just some half-decent acting on Eli's part, and normal humanity on Jocke's.

The reaction of the cancer sick woman when Eli moved close to her is, however, more of an open question. I have suggested that it might have been just a normal reaction of being gently touched, but now I doubt it. The woman's reaction is too strong, to surprising to the woman herself, and too foreseen by Eli. I think JAL intended this scene to show Eli having some supernatural influence on the woman.

Then there is the hospital receptionist Maud Carlberg, who felt an unexplained and confusing urge to give Eli something, if it be only a piece of kitchen tissue.

Regarding Oskar at the jungle gym, I don't think Eli needed any hypnotic lure to enthrall him. Oskar's need of a friend was so great, and just being so close to that "girl" would have been enough to reduce Oskar's perception into just here and now. There might, however, be something else going on. Eli asks Oskar "do you want to give me a present?", and Oskar replies "yes". What happens next we all know - Eli is just about to bite when Oskar suddenly strokes Eli's cheek and thereby unwittingly saves his own life.

Now, is Oskar's reaction a result of this "urge to give" effect that Eli had on Maud Carlberg? I have been thinking so, but now I find myself less certain.

Håkan's conversion into a murderer on Eli's behalf is a more difficult issue. JAL has wisely left this out of the novel, so we don't know how Eli managed to coerce Håkan into doing this, but I'm certain that some cunning manipulation was required. Perhaps Eli was helped by some mysterious field of influence, but this is uncertain. Håkan never touches the subject.

What I find certain is that Eli does posses some ability to influence the mental state of people in his vicinity in subtle ways. However, he cannot overpower people using it. I especially don't think it is useful as a hypnotic lure - Eli needs to lure people by other means before he is close enough to use this rather weak power.
I have considered that Elias' recollection of events could've been simple trickery. Mechanisms mistaken for magic, and given the new information of JAL's prior history as a magician that seems more likely. After all, it's not like loaded dice or an old bait-and-switch trick of the hand or any other potential explanation would be unheard of. Quite a grim way to use that experience for informing a narrative.

I can discount Jocke as evidence for the 'lure' ability as well, since as you said his behavior wasn't especially atypical of any person's given the context. Most of us would react the same without any outside coercion. Oskar's fixation can mostly be attributed to his own circumstances, yes, but something about the description of the moment strikes me as...surrealist, almost. It reads as though Oskar isn't really lucid of the present moment and is being ensnared in some way, being sucked in by Eli's gaze. Given the predatory disposition of vampires, everything about them is in some way a reflection of that nature. They stick to the shadows, feed off other living things, and have the strength and ability to get that sustenance. The 'urge to give' could be a similar attribute, designed to make the acquisition of prey easier through an encouragement of passivity where they otherwise might be more alert.

Let's consider, too, that the ones we see have the most extreme reactions are Oskar and the cancer patient. Oskar's loneliness is well documented, and the impression I had of the hospital patient was much the same. Perhaps a vampire's nature can take advantage of a person's own desire for companionship and isolation - after all, ideally you would target stragglers and loners anyway rather than people who would be missed. Your susceptibility to such a power would be relevant to your connections with others. Feeding off human weakness for one's own gain; you are lured in with honey too late to realize the encroaching danger of teeth at your throat.

Eli certainly seems conscious of his effect on others. He uses it purposefully as a hunting tool, and his reaction to Oskar's touch is one of anger and surprise. Because suddenly Oskar's gone from being a target successfully ensnared and unreal into a person in Eli's eyes. Eli can't bear to be touched at that point, because it only serves to remind him of how repulsive it is for him to manipulate another person's feelings in such a way (via acting or allure).
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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metoo
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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:17 pm

My main trouble with attributing Eli’s supernatural power vis-à-vis Oskar is that it reduces and twists their relation in an undersirable way. I prefer to keep it clean and true.

That said, I can’t really rule out Eli’s “field of influence” being involved also regarding Oskar, at least initially. But then another question pops up: can Eli control this power?
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by SpartanAltego » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:21 pm

metoo wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:17 pm
My main trouble with attributing Eli’s supernatural power vis-à-vis Oskar is that it reduces and twists their relation in an undersirable way. I prefer to keep it clean and true.

That said, I can’t really rule out Eli’s “field of influence” being involved also regarding Oskar, at least initially. But then another question pops up: can Eli control this power?
Ah, there's the key to it. I would agree that such a power would be more along the lines of the dreaded "Eli is using Oskar for nefarious purposes" train of thought. Personally, I don't view it as necessarily damaging the rest of the narrative because Oskar is never shown to experience such an event again (memory scene aside) and that first touch defines him as something more real than Eli is used to. I don't think Eli actively or unconsciously ever would have used that theoretical ability on him again following that, because Oskar cannot be compartmentalized as a stranger and a food source thanks to the intimacy of touch.

That said, I don't think the effect is something Eli necessarily controls although he may be aware of its manifestation. It would appear to be something that only activates when Eli is on a 'hunt', hungry, and so on. Not something that would play a factor in every interaction he has.
"The dark is patient, and it always wins. But its weakness lies in its strength: a single candle is enough to hold it at bay. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." - Matthew Stover

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:07 am

SpartanAltego wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:21 pm
Ah, there's the key to it. I would agree that such a power would be more along the lines of the dreaded "Eli is using Oskar for nefarious purposes" train of thought. Personally, I don't view it as necessarily damaging the rest of the narrative because Oskar is never shown to experience such an event again (memory scene aside) and that first touch defines him as something more real than Eli is used to. I don't think Eli actively or unconsciously ever would have used that theoretical ability on him again following that, because Oskar cannot be compartmentalized as a stranger and a food source thanks to the intimacy of touch.

That said, I don't think the effect is something Eli necessarily controls although he may be aware of its manifestation. It would appear to be something that only activates when Eli is on a 'hunt', hungry, and so on. Not something that would play a factor in every interaction he has.
Well, I agree that Eli most likely did use some mental power on Oskar at the jungle gym, and that he probably did not use it again thereafter.

However, as much as I would like this power to be involuntary, that seems contradicted by the very detailed control Eli has over other "vampire powers", such as healing. And don't forget his ability to force mental images upon Oskar, which definitely is something he can control.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by gkmoberg1 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:48 am

metoo wrote:Well, I agree that Eli most likely did use some mental power on Oskar at the jungle gym, and that he probably did not use it again thereafter.
Eli might have used a touch on the evening when Oskar arrived at his door. I am thinking of the scene where he says "Do you want to?" - sorry I don't have a copy of the book with me - so that might not be exact. However at that moment Oskar's head seems to be swimming slightly in that same manner as on the nearly fatal evening up on jungle gym.

I do think Eli would make use of this ability at any moment where it wfdould give him a benefit. (In general, we look too kindly upon the nature of Eli, and I mean Eli from the novel. Following what we see in the movie, we tend to conjure a cute, childlike, and feminine Eli.) This is a two hundred year old twelve year old boy who has gotten through all that time by doing what needed to do. His skills gained are long since second nature and I don't think he ponders whether to use them nor reflects on whether they are ethical in situation A vs situation B. He tells Oskar he not that kind of a vampire, but he is a vampire.
SpartanAltego wrote:Eli certainly seems conscious of his effect on others. He uses it purposefully as a hunting tool, and his reaction to Oskar's touch is one of anger and surprise. Because suddenly Oskar's gone from being a target successfully ensnared and unreal into a person in Eli's eyes. Eli can't bear to be touched at that point, because it only serves to remind him of how repulsive it is for him to manipulate another person's feelings in such a way (via acting or allure).
I agree with the first sentences of this. But what is suggested in the better English translation of this scene is Eli is distracted by something stirring in him that had not been there for a long time. There is nothing in that scene that suggests he is reminded of any repulsiveness. I need to go find the book because the phrase is very important. - However I do not have the phrase as JAL wrote it. I have Ebba Segerberg's words from the translation.

Edit: Found this after much searching...
JAL/LTROI wrote:Flickan verkade plotsligt rastlös. Hennes blick flackade fram och tillbaka som om hon sökte efter någonting i minnet, något hon inte kunde hitta.
This is that moment just after Oskar touches her cheek.

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Re: Let the Long Night End

Post by metoo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:30 pm

SpartanAltego wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:25 pm
Eli certainly seems conscious of his effect on others. He uses it purposefully as a hunting tool, and his reaction to Oskar's touch is one of anger and surprise. Because suddenly Oskar's gone from being a target successfully ensnared and unreal into a person in Eli's eyes. Eli can't bear to be touched at that point, because it only serves to remind him of how repulsive it is for him to manipulate another person's feelings in such a way (via acting or allure).
gkmoberg1 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:48 am
I agree with the first sentences of this. But what is suggested in the better English translation of this scene is Eli is distracted by something stirring in him that had not been there for a long time. There is nothing in that scene that suggests he is reminded of any repulsiveness. I need to go find the book because the phrase is very important. - However I do not have the phrase as JAL wrote it. I have Ebba Segerberg's words from the translation.

Edit: Found this after much searching...
JAL/LTROI wrote:Flickan verkade plotsligt rastlös. Hennes blick flackade fram och tillbaka som om hon sökte efter någonting i minnet, något hon inte kunde hitta.
This is that moment just after Oskar touches her cheek.
When I first read SpartanAltego's post, I felt that "anger and surprise" wasn't right. However, upon re-reading, I now find that it has some merit.
Oskar has just stroked Eli's cheek, and Eli has retreated. Eli says:
"Vad gjorde du?"
"Förlåt ... jag ..."
"Vad. Gjorde du?"
"Jag ..."

"What did you do?"
"I'm sorry ... I ..."
"What. Did you do?"
"I ..."


Eli's tone is indeed rather aggressive here, but only for a brief moment. Then Oskar presents the cube to Eli:
"Vill du ha den? Du får den."
Hon skakade sakta på huvudet.
"Nej. Den är din."
"Vad ... heter du?"
"Eli."
"Jag heter Oskar. Vad hette du? Eli?"
"... ja."
Flickan verkade plotsligt rastlös. Hennes blick flackade fram och tillbaka som om hon sökte efter någonting i minnet, något hon inte kunde hitta.

"Do you want it? You can have it."
She slowly shook her head.
"No. It's yours."
"What's .. your name?"
"Eli."
"My name's Oskar. What was your name? Eli?"
"... yes."
The girl suddenly seemed restless. Her eyes flickered back and forth as if she was looking for something in her memory, something she could not find.


I don't think Eli's reaction was that he couldn't bear to be touched when he was about to attack. Rather the touch represented something he had not experienced for a very long time, so long that he had even forgotten that he missed it.

Adding to Eli's confusion, Oskar suddenly had turned from a source of food to being ... not that. So Eli decided to leave, because he still needed to feed:
"Jag ... ska gå nu."
Oskar nickade. Flickan tittade honom rakt i ögonen ett par sekunder, vände sig sedan om för att gå.

"I ... should go now."
Oskar nodded. The girl looked straight into his eyes a couple of seconds, then turned to walk away.


That Eli looked straight into Oskar's eyes is significant, I think. Oskar is a person, now. But I think Eli still doubted that anyone could want him for a friend.

"Hon nådde överkanten av rutschkanan och tvekade lite. Satte sig sedan på den och rutschade ner, gick mot sin port.
She reached the upper edge of the slide and hesitated briefly. Then she sat down and slid down, walked towards her entrance.

Eli hesitates at the edge of the slide. Not unlikely he was about to jump down, like the day before, but suddenly realised what impression that would make on Oskar. One that Eli didn't care to make, anymore. So he slid down instead, like a normal kid would do.

Then Oskar asks if Eli would be back the next day:
Oskar kramade kuben i handen.
"Kommer du i morgon?"
Flickan stannade, sa lågt: "Ja", utan att vända sig om. Fortsatte gå. Oskar följde henne med blicken. Hon gick inte in i sin port, utan till valvet som ledde ut från gården. Försvann.

She reached the upper edge of the slide and hesitated briefly. Then she sat down and slid down, walked towards her entrance. Oskar squeezed the cube in his hand.
"Will you come tomorrow?"
The girl stopped, said quietly: "Yes", without turning around. Continued walking. Oskar followed her with his gaze. She didn't walk into her entrance, but to the vault that led out of the courtyard. Disappeared.


I think Eli didn't expect that, was taken by surprise. He also was ashamed of himself, knowing what he was to most people, so he didn't dare to turn around to reply, only barely managed to make his "yes" audible.

But I think a light had lit in his heart.
But from the beginning Eli was just Eli. Nothing. Anything. And he is still a mystery to me. John Ajvide Lindqvist

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